What It Takes To Work For A Design Agency

Ian Paget: I'd like to start this discussion by asking you to describe the best portfolio you've seen, and what was it that made it so special?

Simon Manchip: Sure, so I think they... It reminds me of a story that John Hegarty from BBH, who founded BBH, tells about how when they were starting an agency in New York they were going around and they were doing their pitches. And basically started the pitch with a really smart strategist, might have been the camp director, but someone very slick who was very good at the sale. And they started telling the story about BBH and telling the strategy behind it and all the thinking and loads and loads of clever things. And they couldn't kind of understand why they weren't winning the pitches and what they started to think, well, John started to think, was maybe we should start with the work.

And so we flipped it and instead of running out of time at the end of the meeting showing a quick showreel, they just sat down silently and just showed the showreel and started winning pitches immediately and cutting out the fluff and the sell if you like. Was obviously a really smart move for them then. And I think it's a smart move now.

It's that the best portfolios are the ones that kind of just cut straight to the work and have very little sell at the beginning. We were recently working with The Mill who are a big post-production company here in London. They're also in New York and LA and various other parts of the world. And we're doing a big project with them and we wanted to kind of make sure that we were hiring the right people. And so their pitch to us, the best portfolio I've seen in recent times, was a very similar thing.

We walked into the studios. We sat down. They said hello, offered us a glass of water, and then proceeded just to press play. And that was all they needed to do, they press play and the work was absolutely, and is continuing to be, absolutely astonishingly good. And we just were floored by the work.

And then, of course, the conversation was opened and ready to begin. And so that I think is the best way of doing it and that's the best portfolio I've seen in recent times, which is leading with the work and it was just a showreel and it probably lasted 60 seconds. And in those 60 seconds, they managed to cram in all the things that they were good at, all the things they've done and all the things they want to do. And it was just an absolutely terrific showcase for that sort of thing. So, yeah. That's probably the best portfolio I've seen in recent times.

Ian Paget: What was it they was presenting? Was it video clips or did it include other areas of design, such as print design or logos?

Simon Manchip: It was everything. And so that, what's covered with The Mill is that they're famous for post-production and doing really smart computer graphics and enhancements of films. But what a lot of people don't realise is that they also have directors onboard. They have animators onboard. They have a really smart suite of people that can tackle all sorts of things, including VR and the augmented reality side of things that they're investing heavily in as well.

So it was really interesting to see that as well as kind of seeing Jay-Z's latest video from his album. So they really work with the best of the best, as well as kind of creating things that are then purchased rather than just waiting to be commissioned, so.

They've even invented their own tech for the car industry, for the adverts surrounding the cars, where they created their own car that can be wrapped in any shell so they can resemble any car on the planet. It's pretty impressive technology.

Ian Paget: I've seen that technology. It's incredible.

Simon Manchip: Yeah, so I think that's what's really cool about them and the best portfolios that we're seeing, is that people are responding to briefs. And that's really important to demonstrate that you can kind of respond to a commercial creative challenge. But they're also creating their own product services and organisations that are kind of addressing projects and products that they think are valuable. So that's what The Mill are doing. They're kind of inventing as well as responding and I think that's super useful.

Ian Paget: That sounds amazing. So if a designer was coming into your studio for a job, would you recommend to present their work in that same way, like in video format? Or would you still recommend to bring in some kind of printed portfolio, which is what I've always done myself?

Simon Manchip: Yeah I think it's interesting. You said it because I think when people kind of... There seems to be stages, and I think a lot of people don't recognise that actually just like with pitching for new work, when you're trying to pitch yourself and get a new job, there are stages that you go through. And the kind of the first stage is absolutely to capture someone's attention. And then the second stage is to actually start to demonstrate what that person can do for you, but what they bring to the party, that's different.

Because we work in such an enormously competitive sector. It's everyone thinks they are a designer. Most of our clients think they are designers and everyone wants to be in the creative industries or a lot of people do. So the competition is immense.

And so capturing people's attention is really your kind of first call. But then once you're actually in the agency meeting up with people, that's an entirely different stage and a stage that I think demonstrates a need to demonstrate your people skills, really. And so, we have some really simple rules of kind of just don't be a dick. When you turn up, don't be a dick. Just don't be stupid in the way that you behave, don't be over cocky. Don't be really shy. Just be someone that you would like to meet at a party.

But more than that, we call it the long distance flight and because our business is global, we spend a lot of time traveling. And so, actually, one of the key things is would I want to spend 12 hours sitting next to this person on airplane? And if you are talking to someone and you think, yeah, they're really interesting, they've got loads to bring to the party. They're worldly, or they've got some strong opinions, or all of those things that are interesting and compelling. That's really much more likely to want... You want to spend more time with them. And so I think there's that. The long distance flight as we call it, is really useful.

I think the other thing to bear in mind is that design companies really are all the same. I mean, I know whenever we're in pitches, you're never really meant to say that, but we all offer very similar services. We have all been doing similar sorts of things and so, the difference between hiring one design company and another is slim. And what we found recently is that a lot of our clients are just saying to us, "We hired you for you, for the people." And so the charisma and the character and the smart chats that come behind those people are really the clinching elements. And it's why hiring is so important to get right for any company, but particularly in the creative industries because it's what really sets you apart from your competitors. So you shouldn't be a wallflower in those interviews. You should be memorable, and come in and be a brand yourself, really. Rather than being someone who's kind of bland and sitting in the corner.

Ian Paget: Well it sounds quite challenging to get a job in a branding agency like yours. But I hope hearing this will be a reality check for those designers out there who want to take this direction.

Simon Manchip: Yeah. I mean, it's not a doddle but at the same time, we haven't put loads of... When you read those things online about job interviews at the kind of top companies and they ask you these incredible mind-bending questions and everything's a trick. And basically they are really kind of manipulating every opportunity to try and either trip you up or make you shine. We don't do any of that. I mean, there's no kind of psychosomatic testing here. It's purely just people skills to kind of see, okay look, is this person totally obsessed with typefaces? If so, terrific. You know, if, if the job requires an obsession with typography, you're hired, right? But if you are demonstrating a really great ability to talk about a wider social injustice that you're trying to beat through creating a movement with a new organisation, that's really interesting too. It shows a kind of wider social awareness.

So it's not really that we're setting up anyone to fall, it's just that you're basically really listening. And I think that's the thing that people forget is that when you turn up and you're kind of showcasing your work, it's very easy to fall into, "This is my typeface that I've designed for this brand. And this is this colour system." Basically the creative director or the senior designer or whoever's interviewing you knows that, they can see that firsthand. What they're listening to is how do you come across? Who are you? What makes you float? You know, what makes you excited? Because ultimately we try and give people that work... Someone the jobs that they've always wanted to do.

We're not locking you in a corner and saying, "There you go, there's a 500 page guidelines that you have to do." It's like we want to get someone who's really into a particular subject and gives them the job of their dreams, because then they're going to do an amazing job. And so that's what we're trying to do is just listen rather than trip anyone up.

Ian Paget: That's great advice and it's really useful to know. So moving onto my next question, with CVS and portfolios, what are the common mistakes that people are making?

Simon Manchip: Yeah. So, I mean they go from kind of the laughable to the kind of sublime, really. But the classic thing is, run a spell check. I mean, really. I know it sounds so basic, but you'd be astonished the amount of people that spell things wrong and equally make sure you're sending it to the right person and the right agency. Like the other day, we got a really good portfolio sent over, but it was basically just CC'd to us. And pretty much every other agency on the planet. You just got to look at it and go, it's so basic. Just be very careful when you press that send button, because the emails that you're sending are, you know, your reputation.

And I know that these things get circulated as well. Like the amounts of emails that followed this one portfolio that had been accidentally, and I'm sure it was an accident, but accidentally sent to all the agencies was hilarious. Because we were... Then all the creative directors that had been emailed on this were all just kind of saying, "Mate, it's a great 'folio, but you've just failed so badly on that first step. We can't condone that, we can't allow that to happen and you really got to sort it out. So better luck next time. So make sure you don't CC other agencies in it.

Also, I think the other thing is that people really over-engineer things sometimes. So you know that there is no need to overdo it. If the work is terrific, the work will sing through. And you really see that work very clearly at the early stages. So, style over content is not cool. When you're doing your CV or when you're doing your cover letter, it really doesn't need all the bells and whistles on that actual bit, save it for the work.

Another thing is the very long email, which tells me your life story and how you started out working behind the tills at Marks and Spencer's, and you've worked your way up and now you're ready to enter into a world of graphic design. It's like, yeah, we don't need to know that stuff. I'll find that out at interview. The job of that first portfolio, that first email is to establish that you are credible, that you are interesting and that you're out there doing something spectacular that would enhance and add to the studio that you're applying to, regardless of who it is.

And also, my last thing. I have got a list of them, but my last thing I'd add to that is the reliance on pre-made websites for portfolios. And there are a lot of them out there. Some are a lot better than others and making the effort to create your own site, that is a bit more unique than putting it on Behance or any of these other pre-made sites. Really helps you because actually when you're looking at these portfolios, generally, in my case, I'm on the move a lot. So I'm looking at it on an iPad or an iPhone, and it really is annoying to constantly have to try and look up websites that don't really work very well and don't showcase the work and you need five clicks to get through to one project, et cetera. You're not going to get it. I'm afraid the PDF, in this instance, is probably still one of the best ways to showcase your work if it is print and steel space.

Ian Paget: That's useful to know. I've had to look at a lot of CV's and portfolios myself. And when you've had... When you have like hundreds of applications to look through, anything we designers can do to make that process easier will always get you more brownie points at the end of it. So, sites that are slow or have too many clicks, they're more likely to simply be dismissed. So do what you can.

Simon Manchip: Everyone's trying to reinvent the wheel on that stuff all the time, but the... I'm afraid in that one instance that is hard to beat a very small, in memory size, megabyte or two, PDF. Because I had someone send me a 250 megabyte PDF the other day. And kind of go dude, I have to wait until I get back to the studio to look at that. And when you do you fire up and it's just badly compressed images, you just go oh well it's a total waste of time. So, it kind of shows a technical ineptitude as well, which kind of puts you off.

Ian Paget: I've seen in various books and magazines unique ways of getting noticed. And I've seen one time that there was a designer who'd gone as far as recreating the art director's favourite magazine. But they filled it with their own work. Now I'm aware that things like this take a substantial amount of time and energy to do, so I'm really curious to know from you as the owner of an agency, are things like this worth it? I mean, do they actually make a difference?

Simon Manchip: Yeah, it's a really good question, and I think that because we are creative people, when you're looking at ways of getting into agencies that you respect and admire, you want to take a creative approach. And that's entirely understandable and commendable, right? And I have seen it work wonders, but I've also seen it backfire an awful lot. And I think that what we have to recognise is that these are stunts generally, and stunts I think are a bit like a fart, actually. It's that they do make a big impression, but then they're kind of gone. And unless the author can turn that initial reaction into something very memorable and likeable and useful, then it's really not worth doing.

I mean, we've had people send things. Their CV's cast in latex, these huge slab of latex turning up, we were like what the hell's that? Which did get a reaction. I thought we'd better look at this person and see what they've done. I've had one person actually completely cloned and remade our website, but replaced our work with their work. Which was a hell of a lot of work. But that didn't work in that instance.

And I've seen someone actually sent in a knitted turd to us, which was quite amazing. Little brown poo that was made out of wool. And that definitely did get a reaction. They turned out to be an illustrator and that was quite cool and we kind of have got them on our books now. So it feels like there are ways of getting in there.

I think the best stunts that I've ever seen that really got a brilliant reaction was in my advertising days and someone was trying to get an interview with one of the creative directors, and they really did their research and they found out the creative director's favourite film. They found out where they lived. They found out loads and loads of information about them. And one morning the receptionists came over to the creative department and said, "Oh, I found your wallet." And handed over the creative director's wallet. And obviously the CD was freaking out going, "Oh my God, I didn't realise I'd lost my wallet." And he tapped his back pocket and went, "Hang on, I've got my wallet. That's not my wallet." But he looked in this wallet and what someone had done is they'd replicated all these things that they knew about him and put them in the wallet. So there was like a ticket to go see Blade Runner, which was his favourite film. And there was a picture of where he lived and there was a bit... Very serious detail, but all sorts of creative stuff in there as well.

And what was really clever about it was there was just only one business card in the whole wallet. And the business card was from this strange couple of people that he'd never heard of. So he dropped him a note and sure enough, what they'd done is they'd come in pretending to be a courier. They dropped the wallet on the floor of reception and then walked out, knowing full well that someone would pick it up and go, "Oh, look, it's that guy's wallet."

So that was a brilliant way in, and they absolutely got an interview and got hired. So that is a stunt done in the purest possible sense of being a stunt. It wasn't really masquerading as a portfolio, but it got them the audience with the creative director to get that project. And I've always thought that was a cracker. So yeah, that sort of thing does work really, really nicely.

Ian Paget: That's incredible. It's slightly creepy too, to be honest, but yeah. It's amazing. I guess at the end of the day, it's all about getting noticed, but after that point you still really need to have a good portfolio.

Simon Manchip: Yeah, exactly that, yeah. Because you have to understand that it's a stunt, it's not really your portfolio, it's a stunt. If you want to take that approach, then that stunt better be good, you know? And also there's this thing that we love to say to the clients is that the worst thing that branding and marketing and advertising can do is assume that the person is interested. But actually what you need to remember is that you're interrupting their day. And I think that in the instances of a stunt, the person probably is interested, particularly if you've done your research and you know that they're hiring, but you are definitely interrupting the day because they've got probably a few other things they need to do that day. So if there's a way of kind of capitalising on that, then you're on a good thing and you can probably win.

Ian Paget: It sounds like it's worth the time then. So moving onto my next question, designers are in the very fortunate position today where we can choose to either work for ourselves or we can choose to work for a company or agency like yourself. In my situation, I work for an agency three days a week, and I also run Logo Geek the rest of the time. Both directions have their pros and cons so I'm curious. In your opinion, what are the advantages for working for an agency over working for yourself?

Simon Manchip: So I too have done both. I've been freelancing, I've been agency side and now obviously running an agency. And so I think that there are all sorts of benefits to both sides.

The reason I chose agency side and the reason that I personally think that agency is preferable is just because the life of a freelancer as I experienced it was lonely. And I think that these days, the projects that are worth working on are generally too big, too important, and too complicated to be done by one person. And so as a freelancer, you have generally brought in as a fairly small cog in a bigger machine and so you'd never really get to own that project or really feel part of that team, actually. Even though there are long term freelance contracts, those longterm contracts generally don't go much further than kind of three or four months. So it's a very lonely process that you are a gun for hire. You're a hitman that comes in and is hired specifically for one project. And very often the freelancer isn't given the best job in the studio, is probably given the more kind of tedious things to tidy up and sort out because freelancers are generally a panic purchase on behalf of an agency who has either not managed to scale up in time or has got some kind of emergency that they need to handle.

So I found freelancing quite a lonely existence, although it's quite a thrill to walk in the door of a new agency every other week and be given this project and go right, here's the brief sorted out and you're up against the establishment that are there at the agency, and you've really got to show what you can do.

So that is quite a thrill, but after a while that felt like kind of a bit of a series of one night stands and actually, we're looking for something more satisfying and long term. And so, I think the agency approach also brings one other thing, which is that if you are a freelancer you're kind of constantly looking for the next project. Or certainly I was. Because you know that you've got three weeks or four weeks or three months or whatever it is in one place, and it's quite hard to concentrate on that one project because you're kind of looking over your shoulder all the time at what should be coming up next. Kind of keeping the cash flow going, so on the practical sense I found that quite difficult. On the kind of intellectual sense, found it quite unsatisfactory and unfulfilling.

And then the agency side, you then have a complete opposite approach. You don't have to worry about the next job because someone else is going to provide that. You've got an amazing opportunity to create teamwork and work tightly as a team, create friends in that team. I mean, at SomeOne we are really a dysfunctional family and I know that's a very overused term. But we are friends, not colleagues here and people see that. Clients see that and often that's why we win because we see... People see that we are not just doing a job here, that we're actually really enjoying ourselves. And that we've got great, close connections and that helps make the work better because a lot of what we do is unsaid. It's kind of implicit in the project. So I think that the agency thing is really exciting. Plus you get to work on loads of projects that kind of continually stretching you. So it keeps the kind of creative muscles fit and ready.

So for me, I just found the agency approach much more satisfying, and it stretches you in a further way. And I think also you can get a chance to ask some more difficult questions. You're not just a gun for hire that's turned up to do one job. You have the ability to say, "Hey, do you know what? I know you've asked me to do this, but I've heard about this other project going on in the company. Could I have a go at that as well?" So it gives you a chance to kind of grow professionally within the organisation.

Ian Paget: I totally agree with that. I know there was a point where you was working as a freelancer and you've been able to build a very successful global design agency. Now I know that there will be designers out there who currently work for themselves who might want to do the same, so do you have any practical steps that people can take to do the same thing? How have you been able to go from being a one man band to building an agency?

Simon Manchip: Yeah, that's a really good question and I think if you look at the government stats there are tens and tens of thousands of design companies registered in the UK. And the vast majority of those people, or those companies rather, are under three people, I think it is. You are the majority, we are the minority. So, don't knock it, it's a great way to do things because you have control. But growing into a business is a very different animal and I think that the...

Someone said to me that you only know that you're running a company when the company runs when you're not there. And so that's a really interesting acid test is that, do you have to be in the room every day for the company to exist? And obviously if you're a one man band, or there's only two or three of you, the answer is pretty much yes. You have to be in the room. And so practically speaking what we set out to do was we always wanted to run a company because we've kind of set up in reaction to what we thought was a brilliant sector, but it was poorly represented and poorly run by people.

So what we did in a very simple way was when we first started, there was four of us, right? So there's Gary Holt, David Law, Laura Hussey, and me. And we were all in a room, were actually in a basement, borrowed off a friendly company that we'd done some work for which I will be forever indebted to. And when we got this, we were working on four projects and there were four people. So we all needed to be in the room at all times. And then we won another project, and so we all had this little rule saying, "You know what, I really don't want to use the same typeface on this new project." Even though at the time, I think we all had a particular favourite, and so we bought a new typeface.

As a small company buying a typeface, even though I think it was only 200 quid or something, was quite a big deal. Cash flow is king when you're a small business. But we said, "No, let's buy a new typeface for it." And also because this new project came in and we were all stacked out on the other projects, I said, "Well, we're going to need some help as well because we're not really going to be able to do this project justice."

And so rather than doing what most people would do is taking all the fee between the four of us and stretching ourselves a bit thin. What we did is we took a bit of the fee, put it to one side and used that to find someone that could help us for the following three to six months on this project. And so they came in and they started working on it and we made friends with them.

And then actually we won another project like a month later. And so we said, "You know what, we can't really do this again so we're going to have to buy another person. And we're also going to have to buy another typeface." And so what happened was every project we got we bought a new typeface for, and we also bought a new person for. Always with the intention that that person was free to go at any time and was free to leave. I know that Pixar has a very similar system that actually their contracts aren't really contracts. You work at Pixar cause you want a Pixar job and if you want to leave, you can leave. And similarly with us, that was the same process. We didn't have any difficulty in doing contracts and things. We just had these great projects and slowly we, at the end of the year, we looked around and we had like six more people.

And it kind of just naturally evolved. And every week we looked at the money side of things, thinking yeah, it's okay. We can kind of continue to pay these people. And then each of those people ended up doing two or three projects each until it slowly grows. And that's then... We turned around 10 years later and you've got 40 people in the room. And that's honestly how we grew it. Is that as a project arrived, we've kind of bought a new person. And that's kind of it. And then you end up with a company. And you don't always have to be in the room if you have a little bit of scale on your side. And so then it becomes a company rather than kind of a single endeavour.

So yeah, that's how you do it. Kind of buy people as you would typefaces. Which sounds like a terrible thing to say, but that's actually how it started. And just having the courage to take a bit of that fee that you would normally take as a freelancer, straight put it in your bank account is to spend some of that fee on growing your influence, growing your network and growing the people you work with. And I promise you that the work benefits. Because what we found was the work started doing less of what we expected and more of what we hoped it would do.

So the brief would be... was quite specific and we'd all have a clear idea of what we wanted to get, but at the end of it, because you're collaborating, you always get something slightly different. And not exactly what you expected and that kind of made it better, richer, and more interesting to work with.

And so suddenly you find yourself that you've got a small company and you're working with them. It's great.

Ian Paget: Can I just quickly drill down on something you said here? You mentioned that you started with four people was that you and three friends?

Simon Manchip: Well, the way it started was that David Law and Laura Hussey and I, we all ran a company which was called NoOne at the time. And that ran, and that was an in-house agency as part of an ad agency called HHCL. And we kind of started the agency there. I started the design agency as part of the ad agency, and that was really successful. It did really well, but it wasn't ours. And so we wanted to kind of become independent. And so we became independent and we closed NoOne and the next day we opened SomeOne and SomeOne was Laura, David and I. And then very early on in that conversation, we joined up with Gary, Gary Holt, who had just left Lambie-Nairn. And so there was kind of the four of us and we were kind of clinging together thinking, well, actually let's see if we can make a go of it.

And so we had four projects and that kept each of us busy. And we tried actually working remotely and we were walking around London, stealing wifi by standing outside of hotels and everything. All the tricks in the book. And in the end, ended up in this basement in Euston borrowed off a friendly company that we'd done some work for.

And yeah, and that's that's how SomeOne started. The four of us in a basement in Euston.

Ian Paget: That's amazing. So with the four people, how did you go about managing roles? Was there one person that managed sales and another accounts? How did that work?

Simon Manchip: Yeah. And I still... To this day, the roles are very, very flat. Very equal throughout the whole business. So we, just as a lot of companies like to say, creative ideas come from anywhere so that means we're open to creativity throughout whole organisation, which we are too. We're also kind of spread the roles. So, we all taught ourselves accounting and figured out, okay, what a profit and loss sheet can look like. Which I know a lot designers go, "Oh, I can't add up." Yes, you can. You've all been to a restaurant and halved the bill. It's no more than that, really. Just slightly few more boxes to fill in.

So we all sort ourselves out on the accountancy side, we all sorted ourselves out on how to present the work, we all sorted ourselves out on all the levels that you need. Setting up courier accounts and taxis and all the things that you really need to run a company, as well as designing the studios themselves and sorting out who empties the bins every week.

So we're absolutely grass roots up on all fronts. And when we started the business, that's how we did it. We all mucked in. So, if someone had a meeting, let's say Gary had a meeting, Laura, David and I would be running around making sure there's water and coffee and croissants for breakfast in that meeting room, making sure it's all neat and tidy. So it really is. I think, has to be a kind of can do attitude. And yeah, we kind of have kept that going to this day,

Ian Paget: You've clearly done an amazing job as SomeOne is probably one of the best agencies in London. So well done with everything that you've achieved. It's incredible.

Now I have one last question for you. Assuming that you work with freelancers, how do you go about finding new talent? Is there any particular platform or websites such as like Behance or Dribbble? Where you're looking and searching for people?

Simon Manchip: Yeah it's a good question. The thing with freelancers is, again, we don't actually use a lot of freelancers here. Actually we often much prefer to work with someone full time and grow with them basically and they grow with us. But we do work with freelancers and I think that the way that we do it is largely through word of mouth. Because I think that there's that old mantra of saying, "If you do great work, you get more great work. If you do crap, you get more crap." And I think that actually word of mouth is the best way of finding great people. Because the truth is that those people, the best people, are generally very busy and they don't wait around. So what we found is that actually the best people, while they're busy and they don't wait around, they archive their stuff. Because they're probably organised, that's why they're good.

And so they probably have their own site. And so we have a variety of websites that are pretty much authored by one person. They're just portfolio sites that we go and have a look at and see what they're up to and hire them based on that. So really they have their own sites. I know that there are all the network sites out there from Behance to Dots, to LinkedIn. And obviously we're aware of those and stay up to date on what's going on those as well. You know, creative pool are really good as well and all of those guys. And so I think we casually look at that, but we're probably more actively looking at recommendations that fly around as you know, very quickly, every day, kind of saying, "Well have you seen this piece of work?" So I think that those networks are really important.

As well as, I'm afraid, the horrors of social media. So the joys of Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook and all those things. Work is shared a lot around on there as well. So it's any channel, I think is the answer, that is useful. And so as a freelancer, what's interesting, we run an agency, but we were kind of in the same boat as freelancers. Because we're permanently on the lookout for new business. So the way we kind of do it is we're always looking at all of the channels, just seeing what's going on and taking the temperature of the kind of various industries and companies.

So similarly with freelancers, they can be doing a similar thing, displaying what they're up to. You know like I got a brilliant email the other day from a photographer's agent and all the photographers are pretty much freelancers and Gavin Bond had just taken some great shots of Liam Gallagher for GQ and so you just go to his site, see what he's been up to. And it's just like, cracking portfolio. Let's get in touch. So that's kind of the best way to go about it. Is have your own site and then link that site to every possible network you possibly can and keep it linked up, which of course is a full time job in itself. It's a nightmare, but that is I'm afraid the horrors of what we are faced with these days.

Ian Paget: Absolutely. I can't argue with that. Now we've come to the end of our time. So Simon, thank you so much for your time and for being such a fantastic guest. You've definitely given us a lot to think about, so thank you very much.

Simon Manchip: Pleasure. Thanks for asking us.