Why Context Matters in Logo Design

Ian Paget: I found out about you through Kickstarter, because you released the book, Logo: the face of branding, where you've answered many questions from students about logos by asking the designers that worked on those logos. I'm sure with the podcast we probably have spoken to some similar people. But anyway, so my first question about this is, are you able to share with us some of the insights that you learned from speaking with so many logo designers for this book?

Diego Vainesman: Yes. First of all, I'd like to thank you for making me part of the Logo Geek family, Ian. Thank you so much for-

Ian Paget: You're very welcome. And thank you for coming on, it's really great to speak to you.

Diego Vainesman: Thank you. So this is the thing, the Kickstarter book was a great tool to get many of the students being answered by the designers. What was more interesting is that because of those questions, sometimes those questions develop into some other, more interesting questions that I got to ask these designers.

What happened is the book is, I interview designers and type designers from all over the world. Just to give you an example, here in the States I interviewed Paula Scher, Louise Fili, Ed Benguiat. And then I wanted really to go global, and I asked Mehdi Saeedi from Iran, Saki Mafundikwa from Zimbabwe, from Germany, Hubert Jocham, from Japan, Taku Satoh, Mexico, Gabriel Martínez Meave. And so on, like for another 30 different countries.

And by asking the basic questions from the students, then I ended up asking some more questions. Like, there were sociopolitical situations in their countries and in relationship to design.

For example, I got to ask Pepe Gimeno, he lives in Spain, that in a country that is divided 50 and 50 percent about bullfighting, how was it to design a logo for a bullfighting arena? What did people think about it?

Then I asked Ricardo Rousselot in Barcelona, would he consider that designers shouldn't work for politically incorrect clients, knowing that his client is called Smoking.

Also I asked somebody in Russia, Yury Ostromentsky, the importance of the media during Putin's time.

So what started with the basic questions from the students about, what's the way you create your logos, you design, you develop ideas, stuff like that, I started asking that but then it was so interesting, the life of each one of these designers, that I wanted to go even deeper and ask some more of the social issues with them.

Ian Paget: Sounds absolutely fascinating. I mean, some of those names, I haven't heard of them. And what I like about what you're doing is that you are really looking global. So from a reference point of view, for this podcast, I'm going to have to speak to you for some recommendations and maybe get some of the people that you spoke to on this podcast as well, to share some of those stories with my audience.

Diego Vainesman: That would be fantastic. I have 40 people waiting for you.

Ian Paget: Brilliant. Got a nice, long queue. That would be amazing.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: So, I can imagine of the key things that you were looking at, I understand you explored lots of different things, and obviously people can go and check out your book once it's released to the world. In terms of design process, by doing this podcast I've heard so many different approaches.

I've found most people that I speak to, there are some overlapping things that they might do, but in general, every designer tends to have their own unique design process. So having been a teacher of design, and having interviewed all these designers, from a process point of view, what would you see as the most effective, or what ... Are there any interesting approaches that you've seen, from a process point of view, through speaking with so many different people?

Diego Vainesman: I think that from my own personal work and from what I heard from other people, is each one is going to custom tailor, let's say, what's an established template for doing this. Kind of like, for example, the first thing you're always going to do when you're going to design a logo is, you need to know the client's business. You get to get a design brief, a white-paper from the client. So that's step number one.

Then to me, one that is very, very crucial, and I think that this is one that, and I'm speaking on behalf of students, what students lack is a lot of the research. They just go to Google, and they find a nice picture or a nice word, and they start basing it on that. And I think that that's the crucial point here, because you have to do the research on the industry. What do they do? Where are they? Who are the competitors?

Then the next step, to me, is to come up with three different ideas. And I emphasise three because I don't think that none of us is Paul Rand, who had the luxury of just showing one idea and that was it.

I think that we have to create three ideas. And the main reason why I'm doing this is the students is because sometimes for the first class, when they come with comps, for the class, sketches for the first logo ... Let's talk in the abstract. One comes up with three different triangles. And I say to them, listen, if your client doesn't like triangles, you lost your client. So you need to bring a triangle, a square, and a circle as ideas. So that's something that I'm trying to brainwash the students with that.

And after that, you know, you do the sketches, then you work on the logo, and you have the presentation, and then revisions. So I think that basically there are like two crucial points, to me. Point number two, the research on who the client is, and the concept of the three ideas, that are the most important ones.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I totally agree. I've had debates on the podcast about this before. Or conversations, not really debates about it. But I've spoken to people that present one idea. I've spoken to people that present like three or four. I've also spoken to people, like Aaron Draplin, he sometimes present like 200 options, which I think is a bit over the top. But yeah, I'm in agreement with you that it's important to present options.

I am personally going down the route of sharing the process of how I got to what I believe is the most effective solution, but even through that process, in the presentation I'm showing multiple directions and why I would advise one direction. But I agree with you, I think it's important to share more than one idea. Because I think it's good the get the client to feel like they've been involved in that process, rather than feeling like they've been forced into a corner.

Diego Vainesman: Also, let's be realistic. You know, many times the designers will consider, like, it's not a bohemian life, what we're doing. This is commercial art. And if you really want to keep the client happy, you have to show them a few different versions. Like you just said before, you don't want them to just put something deep into their throat, saying, you have to pick that idea and that set. You have to show some, you know, that you can show them different things.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I know personally, even hearing the strong arguments for showing one option, even now, I would always show more than one option. Even if it's through guiding them the thought process, just so that they can have some involvement in it. Hopefully you understand what I mean.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah, and I agree with you. Kind of like, out of the three ideas, there is one of them that you are going to like the most, and you have to go for it. One thing that I learned was that, to never, ever show something that you're not really happy about it. Because that's the one that the client is going to pick, and that's the one that you're going to have to be working for them for the next two years. So always show something that you like.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate with that. You know, I recently, I mentioned on the podcast last time, I was lucky enough to work with the University of Cambridge, which is the biggest project I've ever done.

Diego Vainesman: Wow.

Ian Paget: And I put together a number of different options, and I presented each one individually. And what I do at the end of the presentation, I show three options all together. So I present each one individually, and then I end with the three options. And there was one I was really trying to push. And although I was happy with all three options, they picked the weakest one.

But thankfully, I was able to step back. Because I'm thinking, this is the biggest project I've ever worked on. I want this to be good. So thankfully, I was able to step back and develop it further, and actually it did turn into the strongest option in the end. But yeah, never show anything you're not happy with. I tit agree with that.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah, I agree.

Ian Paget: Now, in terms of these steps. So you mentioned the three key things. So making sure that you do your research, which I strongly support, and I've done podcasts on that before. We mentioned about developing a number of different ideas. And then you mentioned presentation.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Has there been any interesting approaches that you've come across for presenting logos to clients?

Diego Vainesman: Actually, not really interesting. I think that, you know, my native language is Spanish, so I feel very comfortable in Spanish, and not that ... You know, I can do it in English too, but I think that ... When I first moved to this country, to the States, I didn't speak the language. And I always had to make my design very, very strong, for me not to have to sell it with words.

So the design itself had to sell. And then I got comfortable with that in a way that my presentations are basically, you know, I could have two paragraphs based on why it's important, the client, what do they do, and to be romantic about it, in a way. But then it's all basically like the colour, the typography, the shapes and the different things. And being very pragmatic with what I'm selling. Because I don't want to surround the client with many words that then when they have the PDF of my presentation on their desk, they start thinking, what is this? So I think that the design has to speak for itself.

Ian Paget: But you mentioned that you support those images with a couple of paragraphs, just to give some kind of context.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah. Yeah, it's basically to explain where is the concept coming from. Like, what does it remind you, why do you think that the client should go this direction, and why is it important. And you know, and you create analogies and symbols and things for them. But I don't bombard them with too many things. So by the end, when they have the PDF with themselves, probably all of these words are gone, and they have this paper in front of them, and they have to see, oh do I like it? Don't I like it? What's the reason why?

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. Well, I've found, any time I've done a PDF presentation, a lot of clients don't always read, anyway.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I find logo design is an interesting thing. Not matter what process I've used, and no matter how much I've learnt about it, it's always very hard to step away from that initial subjective feeling towards something. Like, if a client doesn't like it, no amount of explanation or explaining will convince them otherwise.

But yeah, I mean, I've looked into different ways of trying to bring the person in to look at it objectively. Like, I start with goals, and I reference back to those goals. But beyond that, most of the time, anyway, people are looking at the aesthetics of what you've shown. And there is always that, they like it or they don't like it. No matter you can do.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah. Like you just said, regardless of what you say, if they don't like it, you know, I don't know how much could you sell a logo to some ... Well, you could, of course. But the way I do it is, I just want the logo to peak for itself.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well I know even, if you look back historically, the Nike logo, the Chase Bank logo, there's been a few others. A lot of the time, the client doesn't like it initially. So the Nike logo, I think he said something like, that will do for now, as feedback.

And I know the Chase Bank owner, there's something interesting stories that Chermayeff & Geismar & Haviv have shared, where I think there might have been someone in the company that was keen to do it, but the actual CEO was saying, I hate this, I never want to see it. I don't want anything to do with this. And I think a few months later, they went into the bank and this owner, that hated this thing, once the associations had started to connect, this guy was proud of it. Like, he apparently had it on his tie. He had cuff links with it. It's funny.

Diego Vainesman: I agree.

Ian Paget: Yeah, so for anyone listening that has this problem, it happens to everybody. Including Pentagram, including Chermayeff & Geismar & Haviv. It's, sadly, part of the job.

Diego Vainesman: And moving a little to the side of the situation, it gets even worse now when you're talking to the client and you do a presentation, and they show you their iPad of what their spouse has done, and they would like to mimic something like that. And you're like, wait a second. Where am I? So, it's a whole new game, basically, today also.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So, I'm keen to also talk about idea generation, because I think that's something, I haven't read your book, for listeners, so that they're aware. But watching the video on Kickstarter, it looked like some of the designers had shared some interesting thoughts or behind the scenes of where the ideas came from for those logos. Was there any interesting or unusual approaches for coming up with ideas? Because I think that's one of the hardest things, a lot of the time, for people that are new to logo design, coming up with a good idea.

Diego Vainesman: Well actually, I was trying to get into the good ideas for the logo and everything, and as I said before, all these other issues, like geographies, you know, the place, the political issues and stuff like that, I found them more interesting than ... And not many people were telling me about their ideas about the book.

Maybe I misguided people saying, where do ideas come from, and that's not really what ended up happening in the book. Like, I didn't know where the ideas came through, but I was learning more about the design situation in Iran, or in Germany, or you know, some spirituality in Japan. So I have to admit, I don't have the answer to, where do ideas come from, from these people. It's not in my book, so don't buy it.

Ian Paget: Well, I am curious. So with the book, you mentioned that you spoke to these designers about the situation in their country, how that's influencing them in some way. What was it that you found out from any particular one of them that could make for an interesting conversation now? Because it's not what I would have asked them, personally. And I'm just curious, why did you choose to go down that direction? I'm just curious, was there any spark of, like, ah, that's why that's that way?

Diego Vainesman: The reason why is I, at that moment, I believed that I had a unique chance to ask people from these countries things that we never know. Basically, what I said before, like the bullfighting arena. The smoking. The situation in Russia. And you know, and I have my bookshelves here, I have all these books with all these fantastic books about logos, with these great designers answering all these questions about where do the ideas come from. And I get the idea.

But I haven't found a book, I have to say, that gets deeper into the questions I asked them. Like, I even ask them ahead of time, I say, would you mind answering these questions? I don't want to put you on the spot. And you know, in Spain, and in the world when everybody's, it's one of the largest traditions, to have bullfighting, for this designer to have to design a logo for an arena, how do they do it?

Somehow I found it more interesting to get into these kind of topics and subjects, than asking, where do your ideas come from? When you get this global book, from people from all over the world, I found it ... Like, for example I ask this, Nelson Ponce in Cuba, I say ... he designed a logo for a website. And I'm thinking, well correct me if I'm wrong, but who gets access in Cuba, to the internet and stuff like that? So that's what intrigued me more than, where do your ideas come from?

Ian Paget: Well, I do think it's relevant, because I did an episode a couple of months back about semiotics, and where meaning comes from, and the associations come from. And as designers, even though a lot of what we're creating is aesthetic, so it's a visual thing, in terms of the choices that we make, a lot of that is related with the environment that we're in and the world around us and the associations of everything.

So actually, having more of an understanding of what kind of world that person lives in can probably help to better understand some of the reasons why they might have chose to take things in certain directions.

One example that comes to mind, you mentioned Louise Fili. She's been on the podcast before. She's Italian, and you really see that in a lot of her work. And you can see that she's been influenced by the art and the typography of places like ... well, places in Italy. Like, she's obviously researched it, studied it. And that has heavily influenced her work. And if she wasn't born in Italy, and she didn't grow up in Italy, and have that stereotypical love of food in Italia, she probably wouldn't be working for food brands, restaurant brands, and have the look and feel of the art that she does.

So actually having more of an understanding of where they come from is actually quite interesting.

Diego Vainesman: No, it's ... Yeah, I agree 100 percent with you. Your own ethnicity, or your own travelings around the world, are where your idea's going to come from, basically. Knowing people from other cultures. So that's why I skipped the tough questions to them.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. I do understand. And I'm just going to fire another example out.

This was quite a few years now, but I went for a drink with someone who was a teacher at the local college. So he was teaching between like 10, 15-year-old. You know, quite young. Yeah, teenagers. And we started talking about these ideas, and I think he just threw a brief at me for some kind of café. And I started to describe what I would do. And I think I started to mention colours, and typography, and all this sort of stuff.

And he stopped me and said, Ian, where has that come from? And then I started to think about it. And I'm like, well, when I went on this trip and I drove through France, we went into this place and there was this ... You know, I started to describe what I saw, and the things that I was interacting with.

And he said, that's the issue, Ian. These kids that I'm teaching, they haven't been outside of Manchester. They've lived in Manchester, they grew up in Manchester, and that's their life. They haven't gone out there and experience these things. They haven't seen the things that I've seen. So in terms of having that mental memory, those things to draw from, for the people that he's teaching, it's very hard.

So as a designer, and I think it's kind of what you're probably getting to in the book by researching this, is that the only way that we can really solve problems is by actually experiencing a lot of what's happening within culture.

Diego Vainesman: I agree 100 percent with that. Yeah, exactly.

Ian Paget: Now, I know in terms of teaching, so you have a course of, I believe it's a course, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's called Type: bridging image and context, The Masters of Visual Narrative at the School of Visual Arts.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: That particular title is interesting, and it's somewhat relevant to what I just mentioned. Because a lot of the time, in Facebook groups or online, I see a lot of designers that will pretty much take the name of the company and create something. Without understanding the business, without having any of that underlying context.

For me, it's something that's just self-explanatory. So I understand why you need to use context and bridge image to really solve problems. But I think, for the audience, for people that don't know what context means and why it's so important, would you mind sharing, like why is it important and why do you feel the need to teach this particular topic with that headline?

Diego Vainesman: Okay. But before answering the question, I'd like to give the audience the idea of what is the whole class about. This is a master where the minority of the students are designers. Most of them are artists and writers. Or maybe I should say they're amazing artists with amazing stories. And they are all storytellers, they are the storytellers of the future.

The purpose of this typography class wasn't for them just to bring beautiful drawings, but for them to understand that it is not the same to design something for the north or the south of Peru, or the cities in the mountains, or the cities at the ocean. The purpose is for them to do research where the context of learning becomes more important. And you know, within context, I would say that there are different interacting factors that form part of the context. For example, the culture, the geography, the environment, the technology. And of course some other things.

Without knowing some of these factors, without knowing the context, your design could be, it could still look very, very nice, but at the end it's not going to be appropriate to the right client. So that's what I'm trying to talk about, context kind of like, to not do for me something very, very, beautiful, unless it has a concept that is based on the context of the client. I don't know if that was clear or not, there.

Ian Paget: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Diego Vainesman: Okay.

Ian Paget: And I'm kind of, I got a big grin on my face, this end. Because you've described that so well. And I think this is one of the things that's quite challenging for some to understand. Even people that are critiquing work. That you can create something that looks beautiful, that's perfectly executed. It's flawless artwork. But the question, is it appropriate? So, you mentioned about creating a poster for a specific area.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: And that's easy to understand. So, if you're creating a poster for a specific location, and it's supposed to represent that location, then it's easy to know whether that's right or wrong. And although we're talking about a typography-based poster, the exact same thing is right for logo design, that any logo that you design, you need to question not, is it good artwork. Everything that you do should be good artwork. That's something that I believe that you learn quite quickly.

The harder thing is to find the most appropriate solution for the challenge that you have. So for the business. And there's lot of layers to this, but basically, you need to know the context in order to create the most effective solution. And that's relevant for both designers that are designing, and also designers that are giving feedback to other people.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: You can say something looks nice, and it's well executed, but that should be a given. The question should be, is this appropriate based on the context of this project?

Diego Vainesman: I not only agree with you, but basically, to some of my students, I say to them, listen, you are also competing with logos that are being sold on the internet for $25. And that they look beautiful, but they have nothing to do with the client. So you have to show your client why your logo not only is beautiful, but it has all this backup context and concept behind. So we're in complete agreement on this.

Ian Paget: And since we're on this topic, and it's something that you teach, is there any tips or advice that you can give to help listeners solves this more effectively?

Diego Vainesman: Well, I mean it's based on what I answered before about the process. Like, to me, you have to research, research, and research. And many people are very lazy, and they just go to Google and they find two words, and they describe it and they base ... No, you have to do plenty of research on that. That's basically my first and only advice. I mean, yeah there are many other things probably. But I always say, just do your research the right way, and figure out what's the different between your client, your product, your design, with the competition. And then it's going to come much, much stronger than doing something very, very, generic. You know, in the ... And I'm going to get away from the theme subject a little bit.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's fine, don't worry.

Diego Vainesman: During the 40's here in the States, and I'm sure over there too, you had in marketing, something called a Unique Selling Point. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Ian Paget: Yes, yeah. A USP. Yeah.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah, the USP. Which, for the audience, I could say, it was like the marketing strategy to inform customers about how your product was superior to its competitors. And that's something that I always try to emphasise with my students. Like, show me why your product is stronger or different than the other ones by being unique. And then I based that with logos.

So what I do is this. I teach workshops. I go to many different countries teaching workshops about logos. And the subject is always, I have them design Olympic logos. And when I have them design the Olympic logos, I show them all the existing logos for the Olympics. And one of the strongest logos for me, I'm not saying the most beautiful, but one of the strongest, is the one for Sydney 2000.

The logo for Sydney in 2000, the athlete that is in the logo, it's made out of boomerangs. And not many other countries have boomerangs. And the flame has the shape of the Sydney's Opera.

So when I'm taking about USP, something very specific, I see that logo and I say, well this logo couldn't have been done for Paris, or Ecuador, or anywhere else, because is has boomerang, and it has the opera. So I'm training them not to be very generic with things. I'm training them to be very specific for designing logos.

Ian Paget: That's a really good way of explaining, actually, to use the Olympics. Because you're right that, with the exception of a couple, like the London 2012 Olympics, which was a little bit out there, a lot of the time Olympic logos really do kind of embody everything that that country has to stand for and it uses particular monuments.

And it's also a good example because you can't force your own ideas on it. It's easy to understand that, okay, if I'm creating an Olympics logo for Paris, what is special about Paris? What is unique about Paris? How can I create something that looks like it's the embodiment of Paris? And that makes it a lot easier to understand the right way to design a logo. So I love that example. So, you taught a lot of students.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: And students, as expected, they should, because it's new to them, they'll be making some mistakes.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: What are some of the common mistakes that you see that are being made when students are working on logo designs for the first time?

Diego Vainesman: Okay, so I have to admit, I love and I push for students to make mistakes. That's what I'm ... I'm trying my best for them to make mistakes at the beginning, so then we can start explaining what's the whole thing about. You know, and a classroom is the perfect place for them to make mistakes.

I have this theory, because when I teach at SVA or other classes, I teach logo design, we do editorial, we do animations and stuff like that. I want students to understand that to design a logo is the hardest thing in design. So they understand that they are going to be facing their hardest challenge. And the good thing is that when you point out the mistakes that they're making, they don't do them again. So they're very, very fast learners. And their mistakes are the expected. Like I said before, they do not do the proper research.

And also, now we have to tool of, you know, people with responsive design, but many students create logos that I say to them, when you reduce them down, they're not going to be legible at all. You have to figure out how to do that. So. And one of the most important things that I've found was, my classes are always, you have to start drawing by hand, and then one day you convert everything into digital. And this is a very, very hard lesson, or one of the hardest for students. To see how could they convert something that has some soul, that they did by hand, they drew something beautiful, to convert it into the digital world. And digital proofs are not that friendly for them. So that's, I think, one of the biggest things for them, when they convert their analog to digital logos.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I agree with that. Sometimes I'll come up with ideas and, so that listeners are aware and you're aware, I always start on paper. There are a lot of designers now that might use tablets or whatever, but I still prefer paper. I mean, for me it's a nice way to get away from the computer screen. And I like that sometimes you can make accidents.

Because I tend to scribble, I draw quite quickly. All I'm trying to do is just kind of get down my ideas on paper. And sometimes I'll do a tiny little doodle or something, and I'll, like, that's it. That is the perfect logo. You know, that's the one. And then when it comes around to vectorising that, it doesn't work.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Paget: And yeah, you kind of have to master these two skills. So coming up with the idea is kind of just the beginning. Vectorising that is next challenge. And personally, I always use an approach that I learnt from, I think it was from Aaron Draplin, one of his training tutorials on SkillShare.

What he does is he will draw it and then copy it. And then tweak it and then copy it. And you keep all of the previous copies. But I find that is the most effective way to kind of work through that.

So you still have your original, like, sometimes I'll take a photo with my phone, and I'll send it over to my desktop, and I'll place that in the background and I'll trace over it as a starting point. I do that as a starting point, and it's like the raw idea is there, but it needs developing further. You kind of need to keep tweaking it and seeing what could make it work. And I think that's the best way of doing it, the copy, paste, tweak. Modify it in some way, explore different parts. And then you can eventually get there. But there are times when you just can't get the same magic from the idea that's on paper.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah, I agree with you.

Ian Paget: Now, I would love to go into some other things that you've done. So you was the president and chairman for the Type Directors Club.

Diego Vainesman: Yes.

Ian Paget: But now you're the Latin American liaison. So I mean, I've heard of the Type Directors Club before. I've been on the website and so on. But for listeners, would you mind explaining briefly, what is the Type Directors Club?

Diego Vainesman: Of course. The Type Directors Club is one of the oldest typographic clubs worldwide. It has been promoting typographic excellence for almost 75 years. And it's very interesting because going back in history, in the '40s a group of art directors from J. Walter Thompson, BBDO, and Photo-Lettering, after spending a couple of years discussing their favourite topic, which was typefaces, they decided that they needed to change their titles.

During those days, they were called type specifiers. And they felt, well, with that name we're not going to go anywhere. And so in order to ... Maybe it was related to salary also, I don't know. And in order to elevate their title, they decided to name themselves type directors. And in 1946, the Type Directors Club was founded.

The Club includes salons, and its competition, which is named The World's Best Typography, where people from all over the world submit their work for a chance to be part of the book. It's a very prestigious place to have your, you know, to win and to be part of the book. But I want to share a personal thing with you, which is how did I get involved with the class. With the club, I'm sorry.

Ian Paget: Sure. Sure.

Diego Vainesman: I graduated in 1987. And I started working for an advertising design agency in New York. And during those days, without the computer, we were basically speccing type. The whole thing was about speccing. Clients would send us manuscripts that we had to spec and determine, you know, the column width, the length, the typeface, the size, the leading, etc. etc.

In order to do that, we used books that would show us between like 300 to 400 typefaces and the way they look with the different leadings. So one day, a former teacher of mine, Martin Solomon, who's a Type Directors Club medalist, told me that I should assist to the most important type event of the decade, sponsored by the Type Directors Club. I have to admit that when he told me the Type Directors Club, and I heard that name, I'm thinking, wait. Does it exist? Like, I thought he was joking, with the name Type Directors Club. You know, I'd never heard of it.

So comes October, and hundreds and hundreds of people are in the event. And I spend two days going from one lecture to another. And by the end of the event, I realised that most of the lectures were given by the people who designed the fonts that I was using. The same names on the books were the same names of the people that were presenting.

And we didn't have social media, so I never thought that the ITC Benguiat was done by Ed Benguiat. So, I got to meet Ed Benguiat, Adrian Frutiger, Hermann Zapf. And the most stunning thing to me was that, I realised at the end, I said, I got to meet the face behind the typeface. And that was very shock, strong, for me. And from that day on is when I decided to join the Type Directors Club.

Ian Paget: I always find it amazing when you realise that typography, typefaces, fonts, and so on, have been created by somebody.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Because they become ... I mean, it's funny. Like, you read something in a book. And the actual font, it's kind of invisible, because you just read the words. Well, the average person. I know graphic designers, we all like to look at different fonts. But in general, it becomes slightly invisible. And you forget that it's maybe one person or a collection, or a group of people, that actually created that font.

So I can appreciate why that was such a monumental moment for you. Especially pre-social media. Because I think now it's, because of Instagram and so on, it's easier to make that connection. But even at my age, because I'm in my mid-30s, when I grew up we didn't have the internet. The internet kind of came when I was in my teens. And yeah, the world's changed a lot. So I can imagine that was almost like a mind blowing moment, that these people made this.

Diego Vainesman: No, and it's probably hard for people to understand now, what I'm saying. But when you have a book with 300 names, and then you realise that, ah, this person did this font, or did ... So you're blown away by that.

Ian Paget: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you've been involved with the Type Directors Club for quite a long time now.

Diego Vainesman: Yes.

Ian Paget: And you've been involved in judging, and you've been involved in a lot of it. So have there been any lessons that you've learned from being involved in that club that you would be happy to share with the audience?

Diego Vainesman: Of course. I have to say that I was never part, prior to the Type Directors Club, I was never part of any other art association. And you know, the Type Directors Club taught me how to appreciate and respect type.

It helped me understand how much is involved to develop any typeface. And by doing that, I learned the crime that I will commit when I start breaking the fonts, extending it, condensing it, and doing many different things like that. And that's one of the things. Then the club, what I like what they did is, during the '90s, they opened the doors to anybody who loved typography. And they allowed them to become members. Prior to that, you had to show some of your work in order to be admitted.

And also, one thing that the, you know, when you're part of board of directors of the club, which I was kind of like 12 years, you know, you get into any, every kind of discussion about the type. Anything related to type. Even though with some of the board directors I would talk about football with them, because I love football. But we talk about typography a lot.

But the other thing that got me, the type got me to meet people from all over the world. Amazing people. And then a lot of typographers. And I got to spend a lot of time talking about, you know, learning, picking their brains. So I leaned a lot from the Type Directors Club. And I'm still going.

Ian Paget: That's amazing. Amazing.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: So I'm going to ask you one last question, and this, I don't know how long it will take you to answer this one, but. So, you now run your own studio, 40N47. And you're running that with your wife, if I understand that correctly.

Diego Vainesman: Yes.

Ian Paget: How did this come into existence?

Diego Vainesman: Well, I'll tell you. During 2007, the global economy went down. And at that time, I was the design director of MJM, which was a company that were creating internal events and launches. Like, for American Express, IBM, Canon, Pfizer, and many pharmaceuticals. Just to give you an idea, we were 150 people on three floors on 5th Avenue. And during those years, we had massive layoffs, and I was part of one of them.

That's why ... That is when, with my wife Pamela, Pam and I decided to start our own company. And what happened is, one of our first assignments we got was to design the logo, branding, and way-finding for three hotels in Peru. That's why I mentioned Peru a long time ago, because I had to do a lot of research. So I hired four of my students at Parsons, and they did a great job.

But strangely enough, I was their corporate teacher at Parsons and when I hired them to design the logos, branding for my client, I did not realise it was going to take them that long time. So I realised, wait a second. Students in schools are learning the classes, but the timing, it's really off because it takes them forever to design logos.

And that's what motivated me to create my three days workshop to design logos at real agency design studio time. So, you know, it's kind of like, okay let's learn how to do a logo in three days. Believe it or not, it can be accomplished within the workshop. And I'm not trying to say that ... It's not competing against the eight weeks that you spend at school learning branding and stuff like that, but it's a good exercise for students to know how to do it in three days. And this is the thing. Those are the workshops with the students that are asking me the questions for my book. And that is the book on Kickstarter that you saw, and the reason for me being here. So, as Steve Jobs would say, it is all about connecting the dots, Ian.

Ian Paget: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think you made a really good point there. And I think, I mean, now I work for myself. I'm an independent, I don't hire anybody. At the moment, anyway. I just work for myself. But when I worked for a web design agency, I was the creative director of that company. And we would need to hire in students in the same way that you did. And obviously we would see their portfolio, what they were capable of doing, and the way that they thought, and all of that was fantastic. But the first project you give them-

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I'm used to doing stuff in like a day. Or like two or three projects in a day. Like, you just ... I used to joke that it was like flipping pancakes. So you know, you get a project in, you just need to get it out. And sadly, that's the way it is in agencies. And you should have seen the look on these guys faces when they asked me, how long do we have? I think they were expecting me to say like three weeks. It's like, no, no can you get something by the end of the day? And they're like ... They looked pale, like a ghost. I gave them a bit longer, but I think it was a shock for them.

So if there are students listening, whatever you're doing in university, you know, you're learning but try to give yourself less time. Because I think realistically, like you said, you're doing these projects in three days.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah.

Ian Paget: With my clients ... Online, I hear people saying that sometimes they spend six months on a project. That is ridiculous. Realistically, I probably allocate like two, three days for a project. You know, you come up with ideas one day. Next day, start working on the vectors. Next day, maybe putting a presentation together. And including time in there for putting them together.

But unless you're charging extortionate amounts of money, there's no way that you're ever going to be given six months to work on a project. That's totally unrealistic. I think it's a ridiculous length of time to work on a logo design project. Yeah, maybe the whole branding, maybe larger projects that include like websites, brochures, catalogs, guidelines, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that probably will take a bit longer. But just for a logo? Sadly you need to work quite quickly if you want to make some kind of income.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah. And obviously it's not just income. It's kind of like, if you're working in an agency and there a like five designers like you, and it takes you two weeks to design a logo, and some other people are doing it in two, three days. You know, you're not going to be their favourite for a long time.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Diego Vainesman: So. But I think that schools would students a big favour if they somehow create some special classes where they stop everything they're doing and then they say, okay the next three days, or the next two days, you're designing this. And see their reaction. Because it's not working, I have to say.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. I agree. So here today, am I right that you're running your studio, you're now an author, and are you doing these workshops as well? So you're running the agency in tandem with doing these workshops?

Diego Vainesman: Yes. You know, the workshops give me some ... They let me get free. I really enjoy these workshops and connecting with 20, 30 students. And I haven't done anything since the pandemic yet.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I understand.

Diego Vainesman: But actually I taught my class at SVA with online. But in November, I think that I'm going to be teaching in Spain, from here. So that's going to determine how much can I do with Zoom, or with other platforms, teaching these classes.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I understand. I think everyone's facing this challenge at the moment. Especially anyone that runs events for a living. These businesses are having to adjust. But it's good that you've got your agency work coming in, and hopefully once this is all cleared up, what I will do is, in the show notes, I'll link to your Instagram and your website, and then when you're at a point where you can do these courses again, hopefully people will be able to be aware of it if they're following you in some way.

Diego Vainesman: I would really appreciate that. That would be fantastic to get in touch with people from all over the world again.

Ian Paget: Sure. You're very welcome. So I'll make sure to sort that. I'll link in the show notes. Do you want to share, what is your Instagram?

Diego Vainesman: Basically it's @diego_vainesman_design. My name and the word design.

Ian Paget: Okay. Okay, so I'll link to that in the show notes for anyone that doesn't quite know how to spell that.

Diego Vainesman: Okay yeah, that sounds perfect. I don't even know how to spell it.

Ian Paget: Well, I think that's probably a good point to end the interview. We covered loads of stuff, and it's been absolutely fascinating, so thank you very much for your time and for coming on, and for being a fantastic guest.

Diego Vainesman: Yeah, thank you so, so much for having me spend the time with you, and to talk to all these wonderful people. I appreciate it.