The Personality Of Typography

Sarah Hyndman: I fell in love with type, with lettering, pretty much when I was a child looking at lettering on things like sweet packets in sweet shops. I always loved the way, compared to the books I was reading at school, which were all very serious and informative, once you went to the sweet shop on the way home from school, suddenly all of these words were kind of coming to life. And at the time, I didn't realise that I was falling in love with type, I just thought I really liked sweet shop packaging. But looking back on it, that's pretty much where the whole, I guess the whole love affair kind of began, and sort of ticked on.

If you look at my school books, I would draw meticulous logos of my favourite bands, so it kind of fits a theme that kept going. And then I became a graphic designer, and after being a designer for a while, I went and studied typographics at the London College of Communication, and then off the back of that, started teaching experimental typography. And that's where I really fell in love with how experimental and how expressive type can be.

And I think that carried on into my practice. And then four and a half years ago, I decided to take a year out, I think a lot of designers, once you've been doing it for a while, you need to just step away, and find a way to reignite the passion. To fall back in love with what you've started doing. And sometimes you can lose that a little bit in the sort of everyday mechanics of running a business.

And so I decided to take a year out, but rather than go traveling round the world, I just wanted to explore some things that I didn't really get time to do professionally, so look at this expressive side of type, and I started looking at research, and there kind of wasn't that much into the psychology, into the expressive side of it, so not having any funding, I started doing my own research.

But the only way to get people to do it was to make it ridiculously fun, and so a lot of the things I do are like big events, where I'll get you to take part in experiments, but you become part of the process. So I might ask you which typefaces you're going to date if we're talking about personalities. I'll get you to eat jellybeans if we're looking at how type can influence your perception of flavour. So all of it has to be really good fun.

And now, four and a half years down the line, my gap year is continuing.

Ian Paget: I love that. I really enjoyed your book, I got the first edition you released called The Type Taster, which I understand is now called Why Fonts Matter. Now what I loved about this book, other than the 3D glasses, which is really cool, was how you spoke about typography, and how it can be used to influence people. Like how they can set a mood, and how the choice of font can give words personality.

This is something that's very relevant to logo design, as all logos use typefaces. And I found your book really made me think about fonts in a very different way, so I'm keen to know from you, how would you go about choosing the perfect font for a logo? What tips can you give?

Sarah Hyndman: Ooh, thank you for the pump for the book, by the way. The 3D glasses version isn't actually available anymore, because-

Ian Paget: Oh no, I feel lucky that I got 3D glasses.

Sarah Hyndman: Yes, so you got the first edition, which was a self published edition. And I was really lucky in that Penguin Random House picked it up, so they now sell it as Why Fonts Matter, but there's no 3D glasses in that, so I don't want people to be disappointed. So yes, you've got the special one. In terms of, so the thing about typefaces having personalities is something I think we all know very instinctively.

As designers, we use this, and what I just wanted to do was start quantifying this a little bit more, partly to show that our instincts are right, but also to highlight that there are sometimes when we, as designers, make big assumptions. But because we've got a lot of knowledge, but maybe the people on the receiving end, the type consumers, don't actually have the care notes, the instructions, to understand some of the associations we would make with typefaces. So it's kind of interesting taking a step back, and seeing how people receive things.

When it comes to designing a logo, I would always see logos as part of the whole brand, the whole voice of a brand. So your logo is the first point of contact, but then all of the different typefaces that you actually use to communicate are all a part of this as well. So I would think about what personality I want to convey through my brand, and then the different levels, the different nuances. So is this a modern, tech brand, do I want to reflect this in the personality of the typeface? Is it something that is more traditional, and has some kind of longevity that I want to reflect.

And I will think about the personalities that match up, that align with these values, in terms of typefaces, and then start from there. But then taking it to the next step, I think doing the obvious is too easy. I think it's then interesting if we start building layers within this. So there are some things that are a given, if your name says modern tech company, then you probably don't need to use type, a logo that is modern tech. You can then think about the values that lie beneath that, and communicate those, and layer them up.

Ian Paget: This is really good advice. That layering concept you mentioned, I think, is something that's really important, especially for logo design, and branding as well. And the way I suggest designers out there do this is to create a list of words that you want to be associated with the brand, and then take time to carefully select the perfect font that meets all of that criteria. And I would say that if you do struggle to find the perfect typeface, I'd recommend to start customising one, or creating your own font, so that it captures the right look and feel that you're trying to achieve.

But as a caveat, what I would say, if you don't have any prior experience of modifying typefaces or creating typefaces, I highly recommend learning that first, because I've found this from personal experience, when I first started out, I started to modify typefaces, but I didn't really understand some of the intricate optical illusions that take place in typography. So what I'm going to do is for this episode, within the show notes, I'll make sure to include a few useful tutorials and pieces of content I've found that have helped me personally kind of understand typography in more detail.

On this topic, as designers, we tend to use our experience and knowledge of typefaces to select the one that we feel is most appropriate for that project. So I'm curious to know from you, as a designer, based on your research, has there been any big surprises?

Sarah Hyndman: I think all of us live in our own professional bubbles, and part of that, it's part of the joy of being in a profession that you love, that you will share this information, and you can all talk about it, and it's a safe space where you can talk about type in the pub with your friends without other people looking at you like you're mad.

In terms of the research, one of the really early questions I had was, well, it was a series of questions, was firstly, I think we all see personalities in typefaces. Do we? Can I prove this? Secondly, do we all see the same personalities in typefaces? It's all very well me making these assumptions, but it was interesting to actually start investigating this.

So for the last four years now, I've had this ongoing piece of research called the Font Census, where I put lots of different typefaces in, you get assigned one at random, and you then answer lots of multi choice questions about the values, the personality of this typeface, and I can compare the answers that different people give. And one of the first ones that came in was, I'd put Bauhaus, the typeface Bauhaus into one of these font censuses.

And so to me, and when I give talks, I will ask people what values would the designers place on this typeface, and generally the answer is, Bauhaus, you think about the art school of the same name, it's a very intellectual typeface. We all kind of love it because we know that it's linked to research into universal typefaces, it was the beginning of, it happened at the beginning of modernism, so this is a revered typeface.

But then when I started looking at the answers that were coming in from the Font Census, which are mostly done by non-designers, the first answers that were coming were things like donuts, clown, and silly. And I had this panic, of oh my goodness...

Ian Paget: I love this.

Sarah Hyndman: ...My census, my surveys aren't working, I've put the wrong typefaces in, oh, it's all messed up. And then I looked a bit closer and realised, no, this is Bauhaus typeface. And when I compared the designers' and the non-designers' answers, you could see this trend of there were two different sets of opinions.

And what I then worked out was that Bauhaus has been included in the font bundle on Microsoft, so it's been completely taken away, separated from its history, so people are just taking it at face value, literally, and responding to the curves, and the shapes of the letters. And the same happens when I look at other typefaces where designers would recognise them. So things like Gill Sans, or Helvetica, you'll find that there's a little bit of a difference in maybe how we will respond to them.

Ian Paget: That's fascinating. Your research is certainly something I think all designers will want to study, so where can we find this?

Sarah Hyndman: If you go to my book Why Fonts Matter, the earlier typefaces, I've included the top three answers from each of the categories for quite a selection of typefaces. The rest of it is ongoing research. The survey is on my Type Tasting website, on the blog section, in the experiments section, and I'm just in discussions with somebody to turn it into a really big weekend event later this year, so hopefully we can get a lot more people to take part.

Ian Paget: So you're frequently running these events, workshops, and collecting research, could you talk more about that?

Sarah Hyndman: Yes. I really enjoy running the events, part of my mission is, well that sounds a bit grand. Part of the thing that I'm keen to do is take typography out of the dusty corner where people think that you have to use academic language, or that it's in any way intimidating to talk about.

Because to my mind, type is something that surrounds us every single day of our lives, and it's not just involved in the intellectual things that we do. It's part of the fun of how we live. We live our lives through record covers, through film posters, the shopping that we do every day, the sweet wrappers when you were a kid.

And so all of my events are just a way of actually all of us enjoying, and being able to be fun and silly, and a bit irreverent about this topic that is sometimes taken quite seriously.

So when people come along to them, I want them to walk in and be surprised, and then leave, having had some kind of a fun experience, but also having learned something, but that maybe breaks down some barriers. So let's think, some recent events have been to set up pop up typography lab, where I was collecting data for an experiment, so people were eating jellybeans and looking at different typefaces, or they were sniffing perfumes and telling me what the different perfumes smelled like.

Or I will get people to look at different coffee cups and then pick the typeface on the top that they would like to drink, and then they open it up, and as if by magic, it will tell you with quite a degree of accuracy how you drink your coffee. Because this is the reverse engineering of some other research I've done, where I've had people match coffee styles to typefaces, so I can now use it to predict things.

But the whole idea is it's lots of fun, so I do events that get lots of people through the doors, but then I also do lots of workshops where I will go to different companies. A company will give me their entire communications teams, and design teams for a day, maybe two days, and we look at typography, well, we use typography as kind of the fundamental DNA to explore the psychology of communication, but to look at it from the consumer's point of view.

So as designers, we get to step back and revisit how communication works. But explore it in quite a fun way. And I also use all of the senses, so if I'm teaching you about the history of type, I will involve sound, smell, everything that can evoke that era, that will make it much more real. And then I'll get you to draw and interrogate the letter forms, because bringing them to life gives you a connection, and you're much more likely to go away and form some kind of relationship and understand things a bit more.

Ian Paget: This is great. It sounds really insightful for designers, especially those who are creating a full brand identity. So my next question, how have you found the research has impacted your own design work?

Sarah Hyndman: For me, I've found the research is incredibly useful in that, as a graphic designer, I'm basically a commercial artist. I respond to a brief. And so I don't really like blank canvases, I like parameters. I will go away and I will always research the client, I will do as much research as I can, and what I find is it gives me extra practical tools that I can use to create a framework.

So I now know, okay, these are the different things I want to convey, I want to convey that this product is very well researched, but it's quite easy to use, and it's aimed at a certain target audience. And so I now know that I can match the type styles to those, and it gives me a starting point to start building up this language. But what is also incredibly useful is when I'm talking to the client, I can explain, well, I've chosen these because of this reason. And even though I might still be doing designing in the way that I would have instinctively previously, it gives me language to use to communicate this to the client, and it's language that's quite democratic, so that the client can actually use it as well, and we can have a really practical conversation.

Ian Paget: So when you say language, what type of things do you mean? Are you referring more to like the shapes of types, like what you said earlier about a font being bouncy, for example?

Sarah Hyndman: It's to do with personalities and moods, so you don't have to know a technical phrase, like you wouldn't have to say, "Oh, I don't like the way that those letters are kerned." You might say, "Oh, that feels too loud, or that feels a bit too relaxed." So it's using almost metaphors from other areas of our life, whether they are personality metaphors, or sometimes we'll talk about food. That looks a bit too spicy, I'd actually prefer it to taste a bit more, I don't know, a bit more fruity. So it's just ways to talk about the effect of type, how type affects us viscerally, I guess.

Ian Paget: I guess that's also helping you understand what the client means, sometimes, because I mean, we're always using specific terms that the client wouldn't understand, but because of that data you're able to, I guess, translate what the customer might mean?

Sarah Hyndman: Absolutely. What used to happen was clients try and use the right terminology, because that's the way to talk to a designer, but if you don't use it right, then you're actually conveying completely the wrong meaning. It's like me attempting to speak another language, but I don't really know the nuances of it. It's actually not the best, or the most effective way to have a conversation.

And what I find is if I ask complete non-designers what they think about different typefaces, a lot of the time you get this kind of rabbit in the headlights stare, and like, "No, I don't know anything about that, well, I'm not an expert." Whereas if you say to somebody, "What would Comic Sans taste like?" Everybody has an opinion.

I did a talk, and on the way back I was in a taxi, and the taxi driver had said what was I talking about, and when I told him, he was like, "Oh dear, no, that sounds really boring." And then I asked him what Times New Roman taste like, and he's like, "Oh, that's easy, that would be a full English breakfast, something that you have every day. It's really filling, but it's traditional, and it's predictable, and trustworthy."

I guess it's similar to when you're working on a branding proposal, a lot of the times you will ask people to imagine if this brand was a car, or if this brand was a newspaper, I guess it's a very similar thing. You're using that to then inform the choices of typeface that you can then use as the framework for a logo.

But the one thing that I would say about logos is that once a logo, once a company is famous enough, I'm not sure that it matters that much what typeface they use. And I think Google would be a really good example of this. Because whatever they change their logo to, their brand will always be better known than the logo, so I think the logo will then absorb the brand's meanings, whereas if you're a new company, and you're trying to just make an impression, a first impression, then it really matters how you project yourself to the world.

It's nonverbal communication, it's that first impression in the same way that when you walk into a room, the clothes that you're wearing make a difference. The words that you use, how you gesture, how you hold yourself, people will make a really snap judgment from all of this. And I think this is, for a newer brand, or a brand that wants to change direction, I think these are really important tools that they can use.

And the magic thing about type is that when we read, we read on a subconscious level, because it's such a complex process to do, once you've learned. And if you've ever sat and taught a child to read, it's a really laborious process, and you watch them as they're struggling, and they're learning, and gradually these new connections are being made in their brain.

And then once you've got it, it's completely automatic, but your brain almost creates this little subprogram, so you then leave this subconscious bit of your brain to read automatically. But this is the part that also absorbs the typefaces and responds to them. So we think that we're not really paying much attention to them, but we're actually filtering a lot of our assumptions through the typefaces and the first impressions that they're making.

Ian Paget: Now I know that you created a new book that's recently came out, How to Draw Type and Influence People. Now I've not got my hands on this book yet, but I'm quite keen to buy it. Could you talk about that? I understand it's quite interactive?

Sarah Hyndman: Yes. Oh, I'm holding a copy here, which is-

Ian Paget: Oh, wow.

Sarah Hyndman: I'm sure we can get you a copy. How to Draw Type and Influence People is, it's a book that I've been writing with Lawrence King, and we were very keen to do something that was interactive, and that would get people to just get a little bit hands on with type. So all the way through, there are sections that will have different type styles, for example, there's a section that would be maybe science fiction type font, type styles, or there is a section that maybe looks at a super family, like Helvetica, and it will explain a little bit about why I have grouped these together, or why these would give this kind of impression.

But then you have a series of exercises that will, for example, get you to create your own geometric typeface in the science fiction section. So you will be looking at several square triangle, and how a geometric typeface would be created, versus in another section how something more like Gill Sans and more humanist typeface, you can start to see the differences.

And then there's just lots of fun ones, so you can look at Victorian display type, or create your own medicine, apothecary bottle labels. And all the way through, every typeface that we use has a reference, so even though these are being turned into lettering, they're being messed with, you're doing something really creative, you can still always go and find what that typeface, what the original one was on your font menu.

So it has this really practical use that you're starting to explore these different shapes and different styles, and what I would love is that if next time people go to their font menus, they'll start using typefaces that they wouldn't necessarily have thought about before, because you've actually sat there and interrogated the different forms.

And it's aimed, I guess it's aimed partly at newer designers who want to learn about type, but also for anybody who wants to just get away from a computer and actually draw again. I think a lot of us, we really enjoyed drawing letter forms, but we don't really have that much opportunity to do it, so.

Ian Paget: I know what I've found personally, when you really start to look at typography, you can learn a lot just through observation, so I think in terms of like physically drawing, even when you're quite experienced, actually being able to see how a letter is put together is really important, so I mean, I love the activity side of this, to encourage people. And I think it's worth adding to this, I don't think it matters what level you're at, because you can always learn, because letters, you get to a point where you don't see them.

Sarah Hyndman: Absolutely. So all of these assumptions, especially as designers, we make about certain typefaces, and then you go and sit and draw them, and realise, oh, that's why that's Helvetica and not Arial, I'd forgotten it's that little kick on that letter form, or how just suddenly you'll want to, oh, I really enjoyed those letters, let's actually use them a little bit more.

And I think just also in terms of being creative, there's loads and loads of science that proves that the more senses you use in any activity, the more creative your brain will be. So if you're just doing something on screen, you're pretty much only looking at it. The minute you start drawing, you've got the texture of the paper, you've got actually the physical movement of your pen, you also, there's this thing called proprioception, which is really important, which is how you orientate yourself within space and time. So when you're in a book, whether you're at the beginning, the middle, or the end.

And when people, their brains are scanned, what is shown is that the areas in your brain that are involved with creativity, creative thinking, and memory, all these areas light up when you are engaging with paper. So in terms of just remembering about being creative, and if ever you're hitting a little bit of a mental wall, just getting the sketchbook out is a really important thing to do.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I always encourage sketchbook work, I think it's probably, you know, the most important step, just because you can always get happy accidents, and I always like that.

Sarah Hyndman: Oh, where can we see your sketchbooks?

Ian Paget: I don't actually have that many online, but I really should scan in a few different pages, because I do a lot of my brainstorming work, and I just use it to scribble, rather than to do perfect work. Because I mean, paper is the best place to do that.

Sarah Hyndman: Yeah. But that's really interesting to see, but it's interesting to see how other people's process works.

Ian Paget: Okay. I'll scan a few photos and I'll put it in with show notes along with this episode, so that people can see them.

I'm really curious to know, because you mentioned about taking a year out, and clearly, based on that year out, you've probably done some of the most important stuff in your career, I get that feeling, because Type Taster has really, that's how I know you, and I mean, obviously from that experience you have a book that's out now. You have a website, you're doing training courses, and workshops, and everything like that, I mean, how did you go about doing that? What advice would you give to people that wanted to do something similar?

Sarah Hyndman: Oh dear. I don't know if, it's been quite a crazy journey. I had got a point where I'd run a business for 10 years, so I could financially take a year out and not worry too much. So I think the first thing is working out what amount of time can you take off, that you can absolutely free yourself from any parameters of what-

Ian Paget: So you made sure to have a financial safety blanket, essentially?

Sarah Hyndman: Yes. And if it had only been one month, I'd have done it for one month. But it wasn't about just sitting around and doing nothing, it was very much, because I knew I was funding this year, I wanted to fill it with things.

It really was a gap year within my own life, like all of those things that are sitting, those ideas in sketchbooks that I hadn't had a chance to do. And I wanted to do those.

So really early on, I just started running events and inviting people to them, because I didn't want this just to be about me exploring what I think about type. I wanted to see what everybody else, what does the rest of the world think about it, and the only way to do that was to talk to as many people as possible.

So right from the beginning, I think I just didn't actually think about. I didn't worry about what was going to happen.

The very first event was in my, I've got quite a lovely, big studio in an old converted chocolate factory, and I invited all my friends, all my designer friends, a load of journalists, anybody I could think of to come and spend Valentine's evening doing an evening of typographic swearing and cursing whilst drinking lots of beer. And I did a talk about punk and rebellious type at the beginning, which was a little bit linked to when I use to teach at LCC.

And while I was doing it, I suddenly realised, oh goodness, this is a bit foolhardy, I've invited all of these people and I haven't actually practiced any of this.

Ian Paget: Oh my God.

Sarah Hyndman: But it was really amazing just to see how everybody enjoyed themselves, and non-designers as much as the designers, because the whole point was we took away all the rules. The whole point of punk is there are no rules, so there were no rights, there were no wrongs, and a lot of the non-designers actually did the best work, because they weren't trying to prove themselves or live up to anything.

And this, and all of the conversations that happened, where a real beginning of ah, okay, this is how I do it. This is how we just create events, we have to make them really good fun, we have to make them really, really democratic, so it's not just about designers talking to designers.

And if anything, they have to be set up so non-designers will actually almost enjoy them more or get more of a revelation out of them. And then the designers can enjoy the fact that lots more people are coming along and loving the stuff that we geekily obsess over.

And I think, every single day I had to do something, so I didn't fritter my time away. I made sure that there was always a point to what I was doing. And I also knew that to get lots of people to do this, I had to get outside my comfort zone and start doing talks, start doing workshops, start being a lot more public than I had been.

I'm a designer, I sit behind the computer, I'm meant to be the invisible person. I design for a client, I design for other people, so suddenly to get up on a stage, and especially as a woman as well, it was a really strange thing to do. And it took me a little while to get used to this, but I think the whole point is just persevere.

And I had something I wanted to achieve, and there was, if I didn't decide to be brave enough to get to what I wanted to achieve, then I knew that I would kind of kick myself and I would've wasted my year, so.

Ooh, everyday was just, this is what I want to do now, how do I get there, how can I do it, who do I need to talk to, what doors can I open? And I think, because I'm so enthusiastic about it, that kind of opens doors anyway. People want to talk to you about it.

Ian Paget: It sounds really inspiring. So have you found that since taking that year out, you haven't needed to take any more time out, because you essentially created an empire from your idea?

Sarah Hyndman: It's a very small, one person empire.

Ian Paget: It's still very inspiring. I know that anyone listening will take your story and start thinking about what they might want to do. I mean, for me personally, I've seen your story and thought, okay, maybe I can do more with what I'm doing. Because I'm in the same boat, one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast is because I'm not the most confident of speakers, I'm like, literally I spend my time on a computer, working with fonts, and typefaces, and colours. I don't get out there and talk to people that much, so I mean, for me, what you're doing is inspiring, so thanks for doing it.

Sarah Hyndman: There is an amazing woman called Amy Cuddy who has done a really good TED talk, and the whole theme of her TED talk is fake it til you make it. If you don't think that you're somebody who stands up on a stage, just go and do it. And just keep doing it, and sooner or later, you've faked it enough that your body, your brain starts believing, actually, I can do this.

Ian Paget: Actually, I can do that. That's amazing.

Sarah Hyndman: I would recommend that to anybody. And also, another really enlightening thing I've discovered is I get to do, I have the honour of speaking alongside some really impressive people these days. Some of my heroes.

So I have a bit of a girl crush going on, and then I have to be all kind of serious, and yes, I'm going to talk to you, but behind the scenes I'm running around going, "Oh, I've just met so and so." But then I ask all of them, and nobody has got over being, or very few of them have got over being scared.

All of them will want their quiet time, they have their own routines, but everybody says, "No, this is the fear, the adrenaline, it is something that we all go through." So we all just do a really job of putting on that mask, or putting on that illusion. So don't ever think-

Ian Paget: Clearly a benefit to doing it, because like you said, the people that you're starting to meet now, and everything that's happening, it wouldn't be happening if you didn't get outside of your comfort zone.

Sarah Hyndman: No, not at all. And everybody, most people are outside their comfort zone, and that's kind of been the fun thing to discover. But also, I think the other big thing is just doing something that you feel really, really enthusiastic about it. I honestly think life is too short not to do the stuff that really engages us. And to work out what, how it can be a benefit to other people.

How can it be for the greater good? It's not just about, none of this is about me getting known for what I do, that's the uncomfortable bit that I didn't really want, but I have this thing that I want to achieve, which is about everybody sharing this passion that I have for something. So just working out what your passion is, and just going for it.

Ian Paget: Very inspiring. Now in terms of Type Tasting, and everything that you're doing, how can people get involved with that? I mean, how can they contribute to your research?

Sarah Hyndman: Ooh, that's a great question. I have surveys on the website, which get updated every now and then. I'm going to have a bit of a re-haul of those quite soon. There's a mailing list on my website, so every time I'm doing an event, I will put it up on the diary. I will also send it out to the mailing list.

Some of these get planned quite last minute, some of them are planned quite in advance. So, and I'm trying to get to do these more outside London, so around the UK, and I'm getting more and more opportunities to do these around the world, so in fact, if anybody has contacts, or if you want to invite me over to come and do something somewhere, then I'm available for hire. But just in general, online, events that I do, and the books.

Why Fonts Matter is available pretty much around the world, it's just been translated into Chinese, and it's currently being translated into Korean, which I find a bit strange for a book about Latin typefaces.

Ian Paget:  I have one last question for you. For all the designers out there, is there any advice that you can offer based on your own personal experiences?

Sarah Hyndman: Advice, I would say honesty, I think is one of the things that, one of the underlying things that I'm realising is more important as time goes on. When you're a young designer, thinking about the different clients and the projects that you're working on, and not just getting swept up in, oh, this is a really great solution for this.

Actually stepping back and thinking about, but should we be promoting this in this way? Just starting to ask questions and having a little bit more of a conscience about what we do as designers, because we have a huge amount of power, and I think it's important that we use it for good. We use it with a conscience.

Ian Paget: Well Sarah, thank you so much for being such a great guest. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

Sarah Hyndman: My absolute pleasure. It's been really enjoyable talking to you, thank you.