Founding the Studio Temporary

Ian Paget: I want to unravel your story. I want to go right back to the beginning. So, I think as an opening question, I read an interview and I understand that you studied mechanical engineering. You didn't study graphic design. So, can you talk through how you first got into graphic design?

Scott Fuller: So actually, not true. It's true but not true. So, when I was in high school, I did trigonometry and physics and calculus and everything like that. I graduated from high school when I was 16 and off to college. I had a scholarship for mechanical engineering. My dad's machinist, had been for most of his life.

And I was ready to go. But my last year, I took an art class in high school. I'd never taken one before. I've been drawing and doing stuff like that ever since I was a little kid. And it's something that I really thoroughly enjoyed. But I didn't know I could really make a career out of it. I went to school supposedly to spend ... just to check out the school and everything, stay on campus for a couple of days.

I spent about five minutes in the Engineering Department. And I snuck away from my tour group and went straight to the Art Department. And there, I found, "Oh, shoot, this is something that I can do and make a living and do this." But the art that I found was studio art, fine art. So pen and pencil, oil painting, different things like that. So that's what I actually changed my major to. That's what I started out doing is fine art.

So I did fine art for about two years. And I was good at it. I was really good at it. But after about two years, I was just done with it because I don't know. I understand there are incredible fine artists. If a fine artist is listening to this right now, I'm not trying to offend anybody. But I found it in my mind to be completely useless because ... well, let me try to explain this.

I want to create, but I never actually felt that me looking at something and just drawing it was actually contributing to anything. That was, like I said, in the back of my mind, I'm going, "This is not helping anybody. This is not doing anything. I'm not putting anything new into the world. I'm just drawing something." So, I went home that summer after my sophomore year. I was one mouse click away from blowing the whole thing up and going back and doing mechanical engineering, one mouse click. And I would have changed my whole course of my life.

I decided to give it one more semester. My first class was a graphic design class. And I fell in love. I realised this is what I've been looking for my entire life. I immediately changed my major from studio art to graphic design. And, man, it's been a crazy rollercoaster of a journey from there, but not something that I've regretted once.

Ian Paget: It's really interesting because I know I personally got into graphic design because I did have that artistic side growing up. I like to create. And I can imagine that a lot of people listening will probably be in a similar boat. And I think you've summed up nicely and I don't think you're offending anyone in the way that you said it.

Scott Fuller: We got to make sure. I got to make sure.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, graphic design is using these artistic skills to solve problems and to create something new that doesn't previously exist. So, it's still using the same artistic skills that you probably benefited from all of those skills that you developed in those classes, but you're just utilising them to solve problems.

Scott Fuller: And I enjoyed that. I really did. Like I said, my dad was a machinist. And my goodness, I see some of the stuff that he'd make. And it was just this incredible thing. Just take this lump of material metal or aluminium or steel or brass or whatever and just make these incredible pieces. And they weren't necessarily anything to write home about, but the precision and just the craftsmanship that went into this thing.

The idea being that this part has to be done in a very specific way because if it doesn't do its job, then it's completely worthless. And most folks are dealing in inches and half and we were dealing in tens of thousands of inches. I mean, we haven't measured anything in inches in years. You know what I mean? It's like this is how long the bar has to be cut. But by the time we get in there, we're measuring micrometers, callipers and different things like that.

So this idea of precision was a huge part of that for me ever since I was a little kid.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It sounds like you picked up a lot of accuracy that's really needed for logo design and graphic design from your dad.

Scott Fuller: And that's true. I mean, everything was so precise. And if you look at my work, just the way things align whether it's through the logos or even in the illustrations, that is a huge part of what I do. It makes up a huge part of my process. I mean, it's just like logo design. We start with just a lump of nothing, a great big lump of nothing.

And then next thing you know, "Hey, we've built this amazing thing but we're just chipping away at it this whole time." One of the things that he told me a long time ago, and it had nothing to do with design, but it's something that I'll always take with me. You're talking about a piece of metal. He said, "You can always take more off but you can't put it back on."

So, when I start with I started a logo design or something like that, I'm throwing the kitchen sink at when I start. There are no wrong answers especially when I first get started. So, that's been a huge part of my process ever since then. Probably one of the best pieces of design I've ever been given from somebody who knows nothing about graphic design in the way that I do it, but knows more about process and I don't know. It's amazing.

I've seen that so many times. People will say, "Hey, I remember this," or, "I remember that." And they'll give this piece of what is supposedly ostensibly design advice from an entirely different job.

Ian Paget: Viewpoint.

Scott Fuller: Yeah, viewpoint and it's great. And here in design, that's one of the things we're looking for when we do research, when we really jump into the prices. Man, that's what we're looking for. We're wanting those different point of views. We're wanting to come at it from an angle that hasn't necessarily, "Oh, I've never seen this before," but maybe a unique perspective. And that's what I'm looking for.

With my logo designs and everything like that, I'm constantly on lookout for new ways to do things or new ways to ...

Ian Paget: Yeah, I understand. And I'm keen to go into your logo design process at some point in this conversation. But we'll save that for a little bit later in the conversation but focus in on your journey. We've spoken about how you found graphic design. And I know that part of the journey is I guess fairly easy finding a passion or something that you love.

I think that's something that's fairly easy really. But to successfully make a living from that passion is a whole different story. So, again, prior to doing this interview, I read a couple of previous interviews that you've done. And in one of them, you mentioned that you did some interim placements and some in-house positions. But you mentioned that it took a few years to get a proper graphic design job. So, can you talk about that time?

Scott Fuller:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I graduated in 2008. And I had a couple of internships that summer. And one of them was like half design, half printing type of a place. That was really crazy. My boss was actually bipolar. So, that was quite an interesting experience. We would come in and one day, it'd be perfect. And then the next day, my boss would come in and I get cussed out. It was crazy.

Scott Fuller: But the second one went infinitely better. I got an internship at a place called Brand Fever. They're in Atlanta just off of Marietta Street. And, man, they had Coca Cola, AmericasMart and they had all these incredible clients doing some really amazing work. And I'm going to step aside for just a quick second. I remember the first month of my internship, I didn't realise that I had a desk. I remember that I was doing all the cut and paste and the making mock ups and different things like that.

All I worked with for the first month plus that I was there was spray glue and scotch tape, and X-Acto knives and paper samples and everything like that. That was literally all I did for the first month. But I just figured, "Hey, it's just part of it. I'm supposed to do this." And I didn't say anything. I was the second person to get there every day obviously because I didn't have a key. I was the second person to get there pretty much every day. And I was one of the last people to leave every single day, just doing so much of that mockup work.

And then, they finally brought me back. All right, let's get into some stuff. We went through learn there the way they did things, worked with the traffic manager. And then, as an intern, they gave me an account which was crazy. And I got to design a logo, my first professional logo, working for somebody else.

I designed that logo in October of 2008. It is October of 2021, so 13 years on, and that company is still using that logo. So the first professional logo I did, it's stuck around which was crazy. I'll say that to say this. That first experience may be not exactly what you think especially when you first get there. But stick around because something's coming. Trust me, and it will change.

But a lot of times, they want to know, "Hey, I want to make sure if I give this person a task that they're going to take it seriously. And they're going to do it and do it right to the best of their ability." And then, you get something bigger. Then you get something better and just going on. You earn that thing, right?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Scott Fuller: And I had to realise that it wasn't something that I had to think about when I got there because I was just, "Okay, this is just part of it. What's next?"

Ian Paget: I think it's really important that you brought that up actually because in my previous career, I was a creative director. So we hired interns. I've worked with a number of interns. And some young designers expect, because they've been to university and they have all the qualifications, to basically come in and sit down and suddenly start working on the biggest projects. And that's just not going to happen.

The truth is, in most cases, when you are an intern, you will be doing all the small I guess scrappy jobs that feel insignificant, but they are done to allow you to settle in and for everyone to start to trust you and see what you're capable of doing. So, when you're doing those jobs like you was, it might feel like a slog. It might not feel like enjoyable work. But it sounds like you had the right attitude and the right mindset. And you proved to the company that you are a reliable trustworthy member of the team. And because of that, they gave you an opportunity. And I think that's the way that people need to be.

Scott Fuller: And once again, we get back to my work with my dad. A lot of what we did was very menial type of things. There was a lot of monotony to this. So, it was monotonous at times but at the same time, man, if you didn't pay attention, you're going to mess something up in a big way. But you had to pay so close attention to every single thing you were doing, even if you were doing it over and over and over and over and over again.

So, for me jumping into something like this was really never that difficult, because once again, who knew working as a machinist kid would have that big of an effect on me. But it worked. Now, that being said, that was pretty much the high point of my career for about the next two years. 2008 wasn't exactly the greatest year for a lot of stuff especially over here in the US. And it's just, man, I couldn't find work. I couldn't find work.

Originally, I was going to stay on at the agency that I was at. They're going to keep me on. I was so excited because I was going to be getting married in a couple of months. So I'm sitting there going, "Oh, this is going to be perfect." Well, then that happened. Some clients had to drop out or whatnot. And my interview from, "Oh, hey, there's onboarding, here's your new job," turned into, "So, here's what we're going to do."

And then, that just started this chain of the next two years. I was working back for my dad. I was working at a [inaudible 00:16:14] machine shop. I was working at Subway. I was working at Minuteman Press. I was working all these different places. And I worked at a screen printing shop. This is so bad. The screen printing shop was in Newnan, Georgia which is right in the middle of the Bible Belt type of thing, super conservative, super everything like that.

We came in. And they basically ... the logo for screen printing shop almost look like a gentlemen's club. That's what they thought it was. And I found out this later, they thought that, "Hey, really, this is a screen printing shop," when they went to go to our business bureau or Chamber of Commerce or whatever. And everybody was just like, "Oh, okay."

But I remember at one point, we were using a direct to garment machine. I was screen print ... not screen printing but I was printing on these little teeny tiny thongs basically. I mean, I was just done with all of this. I'm like, "This is not what I signed up for when I got a degree, when I did this internship. I have actual experience."

But at the same time, I still learned something wherever I went. Let's see, this would have been 2010, end of 2010, I was working at an Apple store. And I was using design as a sales tool at that point. And that was it. I was doing a little bit on the side here and there, but not enough to really make any difference. And I sold the computer to the right guy. And he owned a trucking company, big trucking company up in Atlanta, trucking parts, and everything like that.

He saw what I did. And we talked about design a little bit. And he asked me to come up and say, "Hey, I might have some freelance work for you." So I took a half a day off, went up there. And he said, "I actually don't have any freelance work for you." I got pissed for a second. And then he said, "No, no, no, you don't understand."

He said, "I don't want to have freelance for you." He said, "I want to hire you full time. I want you to run everything. We're going to redesign our whole identity. We're going to do packaging. We're going to do products. We're going to do catalogs. We're going to photography. We're going to do signage, wayfinding, and all these different things." I was basically going to be redesigning every single thing that they had which is going to take me a few years for sure.

And so, what I was making more than quadrupled in the space of about five minutes which was nuts. And then I'll never forget that day because I went home that night and my wife told me she was pregnant. So, all of that happened in one day.

Ian Paget: Timing.

Scott Fuller: Unbelievable.

Ian Paget: I need to unravel this a little bit. Firstly, I need to say congratulations for that. So, you're just working in Apple, a guy came in and offered you an amazing graphic design job. Now, there's obviously more to this. So, what was it that you actually was able to show him?

Scott Fuller: I actually didn't show him any work at all.

Ian Paget: So, how did he know that you are capable of doing all of this stuff that he needed to because that's an incredible opportunity just off a whim?

Scott Fuller: So, I told you that at the time, the only thing that I was using design for was a sales tool. It's like, "Oh, this works really good if you're a designer or different things like that. This type of computer might be great for this or great for that." And then he goes, "Oh, you're a designer?" I'm like, "Well, yeah, I'm sitting here and selling you an Apple, selling you a computer. So, absolutely, I'm a designer." You know what I mean?

And then he said, "Huh." And then he just asked me if I do freelance. And I said, "I did." And he said, "Well, I might have some stuff for you. Can you come and talk?"

Ian Paget: Did you show him anything?

Scott Fuller: No.

Ian Paget: Did he see anything?

Scott Fuller: No. That's the crazy part. He's like, "Do you have any stuff with me?" He actually asked me if I had any stuff. And I said, "Well, I can't really be showing this stuff around at the moment." I said, "But I can come up and talk to you," and stuff like that. Sure.

Scott Fuller: So, I eventually show him some stuff when we met. But at the time we were there before we made the appointment, I wasn't able to show him anything.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So, by the time he'd made you the offer, you'd been able to show him some of the previous work that you've done. Okay. So something else I want to ask. So far in this story, you've done the one logo. So, in terms of what you've shown him, where did that work come from? Is that collectively from jobs that you had or had you been doing work in your own time?

Scott Fuller: I hadn't tried to do work in my own time. Some of it was from school. I was still showing some schoolwork two years out. I mean, I had been trying ... there was like one or two projects that I still showed from school. But at that point, I was almost giving work away just so that I could do it. I was like, "Hey, let's try this. Let's try that." Just so I could get experience or do different things like that.

I'd pick up a few freelance jobs here and there. So, I had a little bit of work but not anywhere close to ... I mean, obviously, what I have now and what I have then are two very different things.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that you didn't just sit around waiting.

Scott Fuller: No.

Ian Paget: You went out there. And it sounds like you did a lot of work for free as gifts in order to get that experience.

Scott Fuller: Not even as gifts. Nobody had a budget and nobody was doing that and maybe I wasn't knocking on the right doors. But at that time, I was like, "Look, I did have a little bit of work but I needed to ... I don't know. I was pretty, I mean, I still am pretty obsessed with what I do. But I knew this is what I wanted to do. There was never a doubt in my mind.

Now, I had a lot of people that I was talking to the time. I had agencies that I was talking to. During that time, I actually had an opportunity to go work at an agency as ... it was like an internship again. But my internship at Brand Fever was, man, it was paid and they paid me well. They paid me time and a half. They paid for my parking. I felt like an employee.

And then I got an offer from this agency. And I was going to be their first ever intern. I've looked up to this agency for years. And they were like, "All right, well, let's do this." And then I asked about payment. They'd be like, "Oh, we don't pay. We just give a gas stipend." And I'm like, "No, please don't tell me that." So basically, I'd have to work for four months and the only thing I'd be earning is gas money. So I had to turn it down because I had to have something that gives me money.

And that changed the entire course of my career. And I'm glad that I did that. But, man, I don't know. I'm sure there were plenty of things that I did that I did wrong. I don't know. I had all this stuff right here that I had to get out someway somehow. And I didn't want to just do it for myself.

I think it was Michael Bierut famously talked about passion projects and saying that he doesn't really ... at the time, he was like ... "Doctors," he said, "They don't practice on themselves." He's like, "They need patients." And he's like, "And the sicker the better." So, in my mind, that's what I was looking for. I had actually met Michael I think three times in the first couple of years of my career. And just an incredible, incredible fellow, helped me out in more ways than one, whether he realises it or not. But I had a great time talking with him and learning from him.

And I don't know. I knew it was something that I had to do. And I figured maybe there are better ways, but I can't find it right now so I'm just going to stick with it.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think the important thing for listeners if someone's listening now that is finishing university or going through university or they haven't started their journey yet, the thing that I'm trying to really get at is that opportunities can come up and you can get lucky. But luck is the result of putting in the work.

Scott Fuller: Yes.

Ian Paget: So, even though you was going through that I guess relatively tough time of not being able to find the job that you wanted, not being able to do the type of work that you was looking for, you were still putting in the work in your own time doing graphic design work for free or for small amounts of money in your own time so that you could gain the experience, you could build up a portfolio work.

And then when that moment where you got lucky and you was in the right place at the right time, you was able to talk in the right way. You was able to show your work when he wanted to see it. And by the sound of it, that wasn't work that you did in a job, that was stuff that you did off your own back. And if you didn't do that, you would not have gotten that job.

Scott Fuller: No, I wouldn't.

Ian Paget: So, if anyone's out there listening that's looking for a job, don't just sit there waiting, twiddling your fingers, get out there and do work even if it's for small amounts of money. The important thing is ... or rather how you're getting paid is through experience. And that experience when you're young and when you're new is more valuable to you than money.

And working with real clients, you can get testimonials, you can get case studies, you build up experience. And I think that's incredibly valuable. And if you hadn't done that, you wouldn't have gotten that job.

Scott Fuller: No. I mean, I remember when I went out on my own, I remember I used to cold call all the time, all the time. Just this is something I want to do, I'd come at from as almost as a fan, really. And next thing you know, sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. But my goodness, I've had some pretty spectacular stuff come out of a cold call, but you never know.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I really want to go into that. So that we keep the flow of the conversation, something I want to ask you next and we go back to that, I promise because I think that's really important. It's a topic that we haven't gone into on the podcast.

But something I want to find out is that, okay, so now you got that experience. Now, you got that job that you was looking for. At some point, you started your own agency and you're continuously doing that now. How did you go from having that amazing opportunity that you got from being in the right place at the right time to starting your own company?

Scott Fuller: Okay. So, I was working at the trucking company. This was back in January of 2000 and, let's see, this would have been 2012, January of 2012. Basically, I got an opportunity to work for this incredible little restaurant. I only had about a week-and-a-half to finish the project.

And I remember my first meeting with them was at 11:00 at night. And it was incredible. I get the chance, "Here's the identity. We're going to do the design, going to do the menus, going to do everything for it." And I remember, just my wife and I, we're living just outside of downtown Newnan. And I remember going and working with the local sign shop there.

But this shop, here in the US especially in the South, in small towns, a lot of times, as you drive onto the old main streets and everything like that, you'll see a lot of houses along the side of the road but these houses are businesses. And it was the same with this. It's a little sign shop and everything that would look like this really cool little house.

Well, in the back room, this guy had an amazing workspace, incredible little workspace and I loved it. It was about a five-minute walk from where my wife and I lived at the time. And I remember I went there and we were working on the sign, get it all put up. And I remember I asked him, "Is it cool if I use this space when you're not here?" We talked for a little bit. And he said that that was fine. He gave me a key.

For two years, I worked out there at night with a full-time job and everything like that just trying to do my own thing. And he never charged me a penny which was, still to this day, amazing. But I was forever grateful for that. On my first night there, I decided I have to call this place something. So as a joke, I called it the Studio Temporary because at the time, the nomad designer was coming into its own. People just roaming from Starbucks to Starbucks getting stuff done.

And it wasn't as prevalent back then as it is today. And that's what I would do. I go to Starbucks and do different things like that. But I finally had a little spot of my own. So, I remember about a month later, I read an interview. And you probably know this guy, Alan Fletcher.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I do.

Scott Fuller: So, for those of you all who don't know, if you've ever heard of the design agency Pentagram, the original name was Fletcher, Forbes and Gill. And Alan Fletcher being the Fletcher in there along with Bob Gill and I always forget Forbes' first name. I always forget it. I don't know why. But anyway, I read an interview where he was asked, "What's the most important tool in your studio?" And his answer was, "My head." It was just the greatest answer ever.

I went back to the studio that night. I couldn't get it out of my mind. So I came up with my tagline which I still use to this day which is "good design wherever I happen to be," and decided to stick with the name studio temporary.

Ian Paget: That worked so well.

Scott Fuller: It worked. It really did.

Ian Paget: Okay. So, you found your space. And now in terms of the story, you build up that skillset. You found that location and that is amazing, right place, right time, you took the opportunity, that intuitive to ask if that space was available, and what an opportunity. So, I think now is a good time to go back to that cold calling.

So, you've got your space. But now, one of the most important things and one of the hardest things for freelance designers or agency owners is that they need work. So, how did you go from having a space to having a whole load of work as well?

Scott Fuller: Honestly, it's crazy. I started putting that shingle out and I started posting photos from there. And then, Instagram was just coming around at that time. It hadn't even been out for a year when I first got on. And I remember I was still at the trucking company. And I would go to this little spot there and just outside of downtown. It's like a five-minute drive from where I worked at the time.

And I would sit on a bench, this old stone bench, bench and table in this place called The Jane. And I would just draw and sketch and work on stuff. And people will come by and see, "Oh, what are you doing," and stuff like that. I remember making a few clients just from that which was pretty cool. And then, as far as the cold calling, I don't know, I would find places that I thought, "You know what, this might be really cool to do work for." Or, "I love this brand," or, "I'm a fan of this or fan of that."

And I think that's one of the keys to the whole cold calling thing for me at least was if you're going to approach another brand or something like that, come to them as a fan because generally that's what you are. The other thing that I would say is you can be a little selfish because you're coming to them and saying, "I would like to do this for you." Be very specific. "This is what I would love to do for you."

It's not like, "Oh, I think you're missing this or missing that," it's just, "Man, I would love to do this for you." And then just go from there. And even if it doesn't work out right at the beginning, stay in touch because you never know what will happen down the road. But, man, I was cold calling agencies, brands. I was walking into mom-and-pop shops. Some of it worked. Some of it didn't.

The conversion rate wasn't that great, but it got me in front of people. And something that I've always been able to do really well is talk to people and do different things like that. But now, I'm doing it on a ... if I don't get this thing then we're going to have some trouble over the next month or something like that. So, a lot of this stuff that I was doing was yes, I love to do but it was also a little bit of survival as well.

So, I still cold call people from time to time probably every couple months. I'll just see something then I'll just reach out.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I really find admirable the way that you're doing it because when ... I don't do cold calling. The agency that I used to work at, they had a sales team and cold calling for me is them literally say for example, one of the products was eBay stores, they go on to eBay. And every single one, they pick up the phone and literally sell them something. And to me, it's a really slimy, sneaky way to do it. And I would never want to do it. And I would assume that the conversion rate on that type of thing is awful.

But the idea, in a business, you pay a team to do that all day long. All you need is one or two. So, it works for large companies especially when you've got a dedicated resource for that. But when you're an independent designer, that's just not doable and I've not even attempted to try. I can't even imagine how I would do it. But actually going in and being a fan and saying, "I absolutely love what you guys are doing. I'm a graphic designer and something that I would really love to be able to do for you is this. Is that something that would be of interest for you?"

Going in like that, that's such a nice, genuine way of doing it. And even if it doesn't work out, you've made a connection because that starts a conversation. That isn't a slimy, yucky way of doing it. That's just a nice genuine way of networking.

Scott Fuller: Anybody who's known me over the years, I'm a pretty genuine fellow. I'm not here to sell you this or sell you that or try to get you do something you don't want to do. I'm not that type of guy. And I saw how my dad ... once again, we're back to my dad. I saw how he treated every single person that came to the door. And that's what I wanted.

I made up my mind a long time ago that if I ever did this that I wanted to have a personal relationship with my clients. And when I say personal, I mean ... let me give you an example. If you want to work with me, one of the requirements and there's no ... it's like take it or leave it type of thing. You and I have to either meet in person or we have to jump on a call or now a Zoom, these days.

But if you're not willing to do either one of those things then I don't take the job. I don't and I refuse to, because that relationship is very key for me. If you don't have the time to sit down and talk to me or whatnot at the beginning of this thing, then how is it going to work down the road? It's just not something that you can just say, "Oh, well, that's a huge part of what I do."

So, I'm very, very, very particular about that. But I wanted that personal relationship with my clients. I can call them all up right now, agencies as well. I can call them up on the phone and they'll pick up. And I'll know most everybody there by first name. And that's a huge part of what I do. And the cold calls definitely helped. But once again, just some incredible lessons and everything from my dad.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think that's a really nice way to look at it. And I know personally when I first started out doing logo design work, a lot of it was just by email because it was on the side of a full-time job. But now, I'm independent, I agree with you. If someone's not willing to have a call or jump on Zoom, then I don't feel they're worth working with. It's so important that you can speak to the past and get to know them and feel the passion behind their business. That's something I really love.

I spoke to a couple last week and their energy and enthusiasm for their business, that's come through to me and it drives me to do the best possible work for them, because I don't want it to be one of those projects where I just want to get it done because I need to get paid. I want to do the best possible work. I want to do it right. I want it to be perfect for them. I want them to succeed because all of that entity came from them through a Zoom call. And they would never be able to get that across in email.

And yeah, those relationships are important especially as a logo designer because how I see is a logo for a company is like the first thing that they usually get done. And assuming that you want repeat business, when you've got that relationship with them, you can add on other services. So you can add on like stationery brochures, printing, whole identity, websites, all sorts of stuff, whatever you want to do.

Logo design as a service is a really good entry point to all of that stuff. And you're only going to get that repeat business if you have that strong relationship with clients. So getting on a phone call, getting on a Zoom call, personally lately is all Zoom calls. Nobody wants a telephone call anymore. It's always a Zoom call. But yeah, I'm totally in agreement with you. It's so important now and fundamental for building that continuous relationship with clients.

Scott Fuller: Yeah, it's a lot of fun. One of the other things I always tell people too, is just be available because you never know. I'll give you another example. Here, I am talking about all these, "Oh, I talk to people and everything like that." I also do logo graphic design as well. But here's the thing, all this stuff has to ... if you want to do this type of design work, this is all the stuff that you have to do.

But I don't look at it as like this is something I have to do. I look at it as something really truly that I get to do. This is just as much a part of my process as by the time I get to my sketchbook or time to get to my computer or whatever. But I remember playing pickup basketball. And I went over and I said hey to a guy because he and I were the only two red heads there.

And we started talking. And next thing I know, this guy is not only really high up at Home Depot, he is also starting his own athletic apparel company and had been outsourcing designs for like pennies on the dollar or whatever. And I remember he showed this to me and he had a great concept. He said, "What do you think honestly?" I said, "You're talking about where you want to go." I said, "I can tell you right now that these designs won't get you there."

And I almost shocked myself for a second because I'm like, "Okay, that was really bold. Now, I really have to back this up." But I said, "I don't think that will get you there." And he said, "Do you think you could do better?" I said, "I do. I really do." Two weeks later, I signed a contract with him and I literally designed everything for him for the next two years.

I remember eight months later, I met him at the end of 2015. Summer of 2016 was the Rio Olympics. One of the shirts that I designed for him showed up twice on live TV at the Rio Olympics which was pretty wild. And at the time, he was selling on Amazon as well. And by the time the Olympics were over, it was the number two selling, basically, Olympic or USA shirt on Amazon. And the only thing that beat it out was a Nike shirt. It was crazy.

Ian Paget: That's amazing.

Scott Fuller: It was crazy. Just from saying hi to this guy playing pickup basketball. That's it. Sometimes that's really all it takes, but you never know. You never know who you're going to talk to, who you're going to deal with or who knows this person or who knows that person? I remember getting a chance to ... what is it, I did two Dribbble workshops at the beginning of the year.

And just a few months ago, I had an opportunity to bid for, what is it, a UPS. I was redesigning their site and they needed all new iconography for the site. We're talking between 30 and 40 different pieces for that. I got recommended to do that project by somebody who I didn't even know worked at that agency who took my icon and brand identity design class.

I ended up not being granted the bid but I think I came in ... it was between me and one other person out of, they told me I think out of 80 people that they were looking at. So, it was just ... but you never know where those connections are going to come from. You never know. But my goodness, I've seen that happen over and over and over and over again.

I recently got a chance to design my first mission patch. This patch, it's going into space. And I got it through a guy that I met here locally. I don't even know he worked at a, what is it, at an aeronautics firm. I didn't even know that. And at the time, I didn't realize that. And the next thing you know, here I am designing something that's going into space.

Ian Paget: That's incredible. That's incredible. Something you're making me think about here is when you're a graphic designer or, heck, whatever you do as a service, it's so important that everybody, every single person in your life is aware of what you do. And I've had friends that have pointed out that certain things take a lot of time and have no obvious value. So, things like posting on social media all the time about logo design or creating a Facebook group or doing a podcast, all this sort of stuff, there's no obvious value to it.

It's not obviously attracting clients in their eyes, but it does.

Scott Fuller: That's far from the truth.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's far from the truth like you said because all these continuous things, talking about graphic design or logo design, but not necessarily going up to people going, "Can I create a logo for you?" I'm not doing that. I'm just making people aware that this is a passion and this is something that I do. And you've done the same thing.

So, you're doing that Dribbble workshop. Yes, sure. You probably made an income from that. But even that was a sales opportunity because someone joined that, they saw what you could do and you got recommended for that thing. So, everything that we do that's public, everything that we do that makes people aware of what you do, it's all valuable.

Scott Fuller: Yes.

Ian Paget: And I think it's so important that when you meet somebody, they are aware of what you do, but you don't have to be trying to sell to them. You don't have to be trying to throw your sales pitch at them. You just need to be honest and just say, "I design logos for a living," and that should be enough.

Scott Fuller: It's like, "No, I'm just a human being. But this is what I do. And I think you might actually enjoy this." I don't know, man. It's been a wild career and I'm just getting started. I just turned 36. I'm still a youngster in the industry, not even close. The Lord's been blessing. And I'm not going to ... I don't want to stop for sure.

But, man, it has been a wild ride. I've had some incredible support, my family. Obviously, I know I put them through a lot especially at the beginning, but then they stuck with me this whole time and I really cannot thank them enough for making that happen. But it's been a wild ride. But with some of the stuff that I've been able to do, the people that I've been able to meet, design made that happen.

I think that's the crazy part is let's look at maybe some of the things you've been able to go to. Why? Was it because you knew somebody? No, it's because you designed a logo for that person. Next thing you know, you're hanging out here or you're getting to talk to this person there or something like that. There's a group down here called Run the Jewels. Killer Mike is part of that, one-half of that, here in Atlanta, local legend and everything like that.

I got a chance to redesign a place called Bankhead Seafood that had been around for 50 years that was a staple in the Atlanta community, something that he grew up on. And next thing you know, I met him through one other person when I got a chance to work with ... okay, I'm going to give probably the best story that I can possibly give about the value of just getting to know people and being available. So, I'm just going to give ... give me a couple of seconds and I'm going to tell this thing.

Ian Paget: Yeah, sure. Go for it.

Scott Fuller: So, the biggest project of my career, one of the biggest parts of my career at point is working for the Atlanta Hawks. I got a chance to redesign or to design their eSports team. The NBA started a sanction, NBA 2K League back in 2018, back in 2017, 2018. And the idea was to have every NBA franchise to have their own eSports team as well.

So, Nike at the time or Nike designed everything. And they designed the logo for the league. They designed all the uniforms. They designed all of the team logos except for one. To my knowledge, I'm the only person other than Nike who has actually touched this, which is crazy. But it all started out with a failed project. It was a project, I won't say the name or anything like that, but let's just say I came out of it with a really cool Atlanta Hawks type of graphic, kind of graphic design for it.

And I've decided to post to Instagram. I'm like," You know what? Tag the Hawks. Tag these folks. Hey, man, let's just see what happens." But I've made this cool thing and I thought you might dig it. About a month later, I get a call from the Hawks, "This is the Shirley Zhang. I'm the Executive Creative Director of the Hawks. Would you be able to come in tomorrow and talk to us about new identity project?" And I said, "Absolutely."

And she was like, "Oh, do you need to check your schedule or anything?" I said, "Let's just say I did but I didn't, how about that?" And have me come in. So, I remember freaking out. At the time, my studio was about a block from Hawks' headquarters right there in Downtown Atlanta which was amazing. And I moved on from the sign shop years ago. But I got the email and like, "Here's all the stuff for parking and everything like that."

And then in the email, it said, "Don't forget to bring your portfolio." I haven't brought my portfolio to anything since 2009. It's just not something like, "The Atlanta Hawks, you want me to bring in my portfolio?" It's like, "What is this?" I said, "Okay, that's what they asked for." Well, I happen to have a poster design that I just done, it's a big old thing, 24 by 36. And it had about 200-something of my logos and illustrations and icons and everything on there.

So I said, "You know what? I'll just bring that." So I walked up and met with the Chief Marketing Officer and then the Creative Director. And they said, "Well, did you bring your portfolio?" I said, "Well, I don't have a portfolio anymore in that sense." I said, "But I think I have something better."

So here we are on the top floor at the corner office and I roll out this big 2-foot wide by 3-foot long poster on, what is it, on Melissa's desk. Paper-weighted on the end, I sit back and I just said, "Look, there's over 200 pieces of design right there." I said, "You can ask me about any one of them, point to any one of them." I said, "I'll tell you when I did it, who I did it for and a funny story to go with it." I had a funny story from maybe 20% of those but I took a risk. Well, they asked about two of them which thankfully I did have a funny story about. And five minutes later, I had the job.

Ian Paget: Wow.

Scott Fuller: Now, here's the crazy part. So, I go through, do the work with them. And at the time, my buddy was a photographer doing a lot of photography for Killer Mike. Well, Killer Mike was also around the community. He had a barbershop which I actually was already getting my hair and my beard trimmed up which was really cool. At the time, I didn't even know he owned it. He co-owns it with his wife Shay who is a wonderful, wonderful lady.

And anyway, my buddy Steve West was like, "You got to meet him. I think you guys would hit it off." "I'm fine." Well, he started one of his ... one of the things he did is he started in our NBA arena there in Atlanta for the Hawks. He actually opened up a version of his barbershop. So folks could get their beard trimmed or hair cut during the game and watch the game. And it was an incredible view from the barbershop.

Well, I took my kid. My son and I went. He loves going to NBA games. So, I took him there and he was standing in front. So I was, "Shoot." So, I get to meet Mike, get to have the picture with him and everything like that. Well then, Melissa Proctor who was our, like I said the CMO of the Hawks, she walks out of the barbershop at that time. Right then and goes oh, "Hey, Scott, how's it going?" I give her a hug. We chitchat for a minute.

Then she turns to Mike and says, "By the way, this is the kid that I was telling you about." And his whole face changed. He turns to me and he goes, "That was you?" I said, "Yeah, that was me." He gave me his ... this guy is a pretty hot there celebrity like whatnot like it was nuts. He gave me his cell phone number first meeting.

Ian Paget: No way.

Scott Fuller: And from there, I got the chance to stuff the barber shop and then to do Bankhead Seafood. And by the way, his partner in Bankhead Seafood was another equally famous rapper here in Atlanta called T.I. And so, I got a chance to work with them. And then, I just recently finished up a project with T.I. for another restaurant which I found out yesterday. It just got painted on the side of the building in Downtown Atlanta.

So, all of that came from a failed project that I decided to throw up on Instagram because I thought it was really cool. And that was, let's see how long it goes, that was three years ago, that whole process over those three years. And each one of those projects that I've done with them has literally changed some part of my career. So you never know.

Ian Paget: That's an incredible story.

Scott Fuller: And it's all true. It's all true.

Ian Paget: It's mind blowing. You wouldn't think or sometimes, you don't realise the consequences of your actions and something that I've always found really important. And I always think back to this moment when I was younger. I met this graphic designer who would never show his work. So we'd ask him, "Can you show your work?" And he would never show it. He felt uncomfortable about sharing his work.

But the truth is unless you show what you're doing, nobody actually knows what you're capable of doing. And this even comes to my mind as well. These past six to nine months, I haven't publicly shown any of the work that I've done for clients. And you've firmly reminded me the importance of showing that, even the failed stuff because you never know what's going to come off that work.

So, if you create something, show it. It's so important. And that whole story that you've said there, that just wouldn't have happened if you hadn't just shared this thing on Instagram. And at the time, you probably thought nothing of it, but look at the consequences of doing that. It's incredible.

Scott Fuller: I mean, I've been showing my work like that for years and years. I mean, once again, it goes back to, hey, I didn't have clients so I had to do my own thing or I had make up my own stuff. I always found a way to put my own stuff out there no matter what. Just because like I said, if I didn't, I wouldn't be where I am right now.

One thing that I did when I did coming up was I would actually ... I'd create clients and stuff like that. But I used to do these little posts based around, "Hey, this is what I went through today. This is what I'm dealing with today." And instead of going to therapy or something like that, I would make something and put it online. And next thing you know, I might be getting hired because of this.

My first couple of big opportunities came not from any client work that I did, but came from projects that I just did for the fun of it. My first really big opportunities came from that. So, I will always put great stock and the importance of work just for fun, work for play because it's a big deal. It really is. So, you never know what those first couple ones are going to come from.

But the more work you put in, I can guarantee you. It's amazing how lucky you get, the harder you work. I'm just going to put that out there. But sometimes, it's not about doing this for the biggest client or the best client, sometimes it's just getting out, doing the work, and then doing it again and again and again and again. And just showing up, clocking in. And it doesn't sound glamorous or whatnot. And there's part of this industry that really isn't, but pay offs.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it really does. And we've been speaking for over an hour so I think that's probably a really good point to wrap up the interview. It's been absolutely incredible to learn how you started out. I think it's important to share how it's not always easy. But yeah, look at where you are now and the opportunities that you've got through simple actions. And hopefully, listeners have got a lot out of that.

I mean, for me, the biggest thing is I need to show more of my work because it's incredible that that posting on Instagram to get that job, that's mind blowing. So, thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing some insights into how you've been able to get to where you are now. So, thank you so much for coming on, Scott.

Scott Fuller: Hey, anytime, man. I'm not a huge podcast type of guy. I think I've been interviewed on more podcasts than I've actually listened to. But I'm telling you all, one of the few that I have listened to is this one. So, I appreciate it. I'm honoured that you had me on, man. I've been following along your stuff for a few years now and super impressed with what you've been doing and everything. So, to be a part of this has been a real joy, man.

Ian Paget: And I feel we have so much more that we could talk about. So I'll probably need to get you back on again in the future.

Scott Fuller: Yeah, I'd love to. We'll do a part two.

Ian Paget: A part two.

Scott Fuller: But man, I hope this was fun. I hope everybody enjoyed it. And like I said, just a little glimpse into my career, my process, a little bit about me. But I'm thrilled to be here. Lord's blessed. I couldn't believe I have an amazing family and incredible ... I've got a good life. And I know that that's huge blessing for me. So, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep doing, keep watching out for my family. And it's going to be ... there's still a long way to go. There's still a long way to go and I, for one, am pretty excited about it.