Becoming a Premier League Designer

Ian Paget: As you know we’re both goal setters and I know one of your big goals has always been to work for a major sports club. And I think it’s super amazing Mark that you’ve actually reached that goal now. So, as an opening question for the audience, how did you go about working out what that goal was originally?

Mark Hirons: Yeah, that’s a big question, right? It’s every young designers plan, you don’t really know what to do when you’re starting out. I think it comes back to what I love, and what I really want to do, not just design and my career in design, but what I want to be around all the time as well is football. If you can find something that you really love and you want to merge it with your career, that’s the ultimate goal because then you don’t really find that the working day is too stressful. Well, it can be, but you don’t find it as hard as doing a job you don’t like.

And that’s always been my goal to find something that I love doing, and always wanted to do and I’ve always had that in the back of my mind since starting out. Sports design and graphic design in sports has been natural, I’ve always played football. Just finding something that I love to do and mixing my passions with design and sports.

Ian Paget: I think it’s really cool that you set a goal that most people would think is not possible. Most would think they can’t possibly ever end up working as a graphic designer for a major sports club. But you’ve done it Mark. And it’s awesome.

I’ve been following you and watching what you’ve been doing for quite a few years now, since we first met, we’ve been friends for quite a few years now. There was a point where I noticed with everything that you’ve been doing; your podcast, your work, everything that you’ve been doing, you’ve been doing a little bit of everything. Learning as much as you can about graphic design, and any client that came to you, you said yes.

But in the last twelve months, something changed. With your podcast you pivoted from doing just generic graphic design related content to creating sports graphic design content and the same with the work that you’re starting to present on your website. I noticed that you went from just general graphic design to doing sport based work.

What was that change? What triggered in you? I know you’ve had this goal for years, but something happened in the last twelve months that changed your mindset. What was that? What was that thing that clicked that switched for you to change your strategy?

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I guess I got a bit fed up with doing work for the people I’m not too fussed about. In a really unappreciative way, that sounds so bad saying that. It’s sort of true. I just, yeah I’ve been doing, I mean I first started out doing a cricket magazine, so I’ve always done sports design and sports stuff. I think I just had enough of doing small business logos and as much money as it did bring in and it helped me a lot learning and developing my skills, it was great to try and focus in on something. And to be honest, I didn’t expect this to all happen so quickly. Like you said I’ve only been doing the sports design probably for about a year, really just focusing on that. And I’ve always done little bits of it, but only solely focusing there for about a year.

It just shows how if you put a lot of effort into something and how you kind of focus all your energy into something, or a specific area of design and you really want to try and get to certain places, and you kind of have it that you will get there and it might even come sooner then you think. So, yeah it’s been an amazing few months. And the trigger, to go back to your question, the trigger of it, yeah just again going back to the passion of really finding something you love to do and wanting to do that rather than anything else.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I was wondering if, online on podcasts, everywhere, all over the internet in the graphic design space, everyone is talking about niche and down. I was wondering if it was something to do with that, that maybe triggered you to start focusing more. So it wasn’t anything to do with that? It was just more you were focusing more on what interested you?

Mark Hirons: No, it probably was a bit of that as well. It sounds like a good excuse to leave off the stuff of whatever you want to do. I’m not sure I even, I almost write it out as a vice either, for younger creators and young designers, is to niche down. I’m not even sure it’s a good idea for people starting out. I mean, depends how focused you are I guess, how much effort you wanted to put into it. Because if you’re not putting enough effort into it, then you won’t get enough work because it’s such a small area. But yeah, it’s interesting. I think that definitely impacted it a little bit.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. Well I think the way that you started was the right way to do it and it’s the way that I’ve done my work as well. You start off as a graphic designer, learning everything, doing a little bit of everything, working with lots of different clients. And then you find an area that you particularly enjoy and that you want to focus on, so when people talk about niching down, a lot of people think you need to work that out from the beginning.

But I think you’ve done it the natural way, which is the way people that I know that are really successful within a niche, that’s how they ended up niching down and you’ve kind of taken that route that you started off doing a little bit of everything and like a small part of your work, because it interested you, was sports based. And then obviously you’ve been able to hone down on that more.

And now I’ve noticed pretty much everything on your website is all sports based. So clearly you’ve consciously or subconsciously you’ve realised that you show the type of work that you want.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a huge tip as well. Just every illustrator I speak to, every designer I speak to you’ve got to do that because otherwise you’ll get work you don’t want to do. If you start showing logos for local bakeries, you don’t want to be doing local bakery logos, then, I think it’s because people see stuff similar, see that you can do something similar to what they’re looking for and then they come to you because they feel confidence in that you can do it. So if you’re just doing sports illustration or sports design or branding around sports and a bakery comes and sees your work, they’re like oh I don’t think it’s going to be a right fit for me. So then they won’t go to you.

So it makes a lot of sense just to show the work that, also I guess it shows a bit of expertise in that field as well. Show that you’re willing just to go into one thing. Shows you’re really passionate about that.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it shows the expertise and the passion for it. Because as you know yourself, there are a few people that I know that do sports based graphic design work, but they’re really established and it’s hard to picture how you can become like that one day. But why I like your story is I think it’s a lot more relatable for listeners because like I said, I think, it’s been really fascinating watching you because like I said we’ve known each other since you’ve been at college. And it’s so cool to see that you’ve actually achieved that goal in a relatively short space of time.

Mark Hirons: Yes. I think it was school to be honest, I think you’ve known me a long long time.

Ian Paget: Yeah, we’ve known each other for ages.

Mark Hirons: It’s no small part to you as well, you’ve helped me massively throughout this journey. So I really do appreciate it.

Ian Paget: Oh, you’re welcome Mark. I think it’ll be good going back through how you progressed through your work. So, when I first met you, I think even then you were working on Blue Deer Design, if I remember right.

Mark Hirons: Yes.

Ian Paget: Would you mind talking through kind of your progression, how you started off with Blue Deer and how you progressed to the point where you are today, where you basically reached your, what you set out to do. I think that’ll be inspiring for people that’s listening.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, sure. So, it started off at school, that little cricket magazine making PowerPoints. And the cover made in Microsoft Paint, with the really crudely cut out cricket players I’d stolen all the images off the internet. Yeah, actually fun fact, cricket club actually stole, I did some playing cards, like I made my own little set of playing cards. And the cricket, I went to the cricket club, I had a meeting with them about potentially doing something for the club and obviously I wasn’t capable of doing it, in those times doing the Microsoft Paint and PowerPoint. But they stole the idea. And they didn’t give me any credit for it at all, they didn’t give reach in their package. I really got to them like that. And then they started doing their own magazine as well.

Anyway, that’s another story.

Ian Paget: Do you want to know a fun fact from me?

Mark Hirons: Go ahead.

Ian Paget: One of my very first jobs as a graphic designer, I had no graphic design experience but they asked me to do some kind of illustration, because they knew that I was into art but I didn’t have any of the design skills needed. They actually asked me to do a drawing of one of the products being opened. And they asked me if I could do it on the computer. And the only software that I knew that I could do anything in was Microsoft Paint. So, yeah. I can relate with that.

Sorry Mark, I’ll let you carry on.

Mark Hirons: We all start somewhere.

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Mark Hirons: But yeah, so it’s from the cricket magazine, started working with smaller cricket bat companies. And then it eventually evolved into businesses and then smaller businesses and then a little bit bigger businesses. And then I niched down. But to break that down a little bit, I think a good bit of advice is just message people on Instagram and Twitter and even LinkedIn now as well, I don’t know much about LinkedIn but I try to be on it and get around it. But, if you can really make a social media platform your home and mine was Twitter in the early days, and that’s where I found you Ian as well.

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Mark Hirons: And just started messaging companies saying can I do your next project or can I do your next logo. Most of them will say yes if they want to take advantage of you at an early age or if your works good enough already. So that’s where it started really, just going for that and then developing through college and school. Yeah, it just grew a little bit.

Ian Paget: When you say about contacting companies, are you contacting agencies, graphic designers or are you reaching out to clients through social media?

Mark Hirons: Yeah, good point. Yeah no not a lot of agencies or designers, it’s more clients, potential clients and small businesses that you can offer your services too. I mean to be honest, looking back it’s probably that I wasn’t charging enough money, that’s probably why a lot of them took me up on the job because they could get some cheap work out of it. But it’s also a really valuable learning experience as well. So I’ve just made a video actually to talk about your start, you’ve got to start somewhere. And it’s good to get on the ladder, wherever that’s being taken advantage of or not because the bigger stories telling in the future.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I started off in a similar way. A lot of the freelance based graphic design work that I was doing, it was bands and stuff through MySpace, which is long before you were even born. But using these platforms to get some work. And I think, in those early days, because you don’t have that much experience, I think the lower prices is kind of justified really. And I think a lot of those clients early on are giving you an opportunity, like they’re probably aware that you’re not, that they’re not going to get first class work but it’s probably sufficient for what they need. So I think that’s the right thing to do, is early on you should be okay to take on some of these smaller projects just to get that experience working with clients and you then go up the ladder.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, it’s not even just giving them stuff, it’s helping you out as well. I mean to be honest, thinking about even even helping out clubs these days, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned this, but for free.

Ian Paget: No, it’s good.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, it’s a small Welsh club which I’ve been doing all their program covers for because I needed to develop my illustration style. And I mean if you can get some money, obviously do charge and yeah get some money behind you and in your pocket. But it’s been amazing to grow that and that’s helped me get this job. So it’s obviously benefited me in a way. So if you can help other people out whilst benefiting yourself and building up your portfolio and using that as work to pitch to other companies and bigger sports teams, then definitely do.

Ian Paget: Mark, I think you’ve really probably said something there that you think is probably a small thing but actually I think it’s a big deal.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Because you set out on that goal to work for a major sports club, and how you get attracted by a major sports club is you need to do work that is relevant to them. And the way that you’ve been able to do that, by the sound of it, is reaching out to local sports clubs and providing that support. And if they’re not willing to pay for it, you’ve been doing it voluntarily so that you can create a case study. And I think, I don’t want to advocate free work because there’s clients out there that will take advantage of you doing work for free, but when it’s beneficial to you, like for you, you wanted it as portfolio pieces so that you could show it to other people to get more of that type of work, I think that’s the best way to do it Mark. I think you did the right thing with that.

And obviously those experiences allowed you to create a portfolio piece that you could show to other people. And sports club owners, they probably known other sports club owners and you create that domino effect. And it’s worked for you.

Mark Hirons: Exactly. I think everyone will go their different ways and everyone has their own story about doing free work or not doing free work. And I’ve had arguments on Twitter with people, I’ve had discussions as well and good discussions about it. And it’s up to you, it’s totally up to you whether you take it or look at it in different ways. But, it’s usually helped me. Most of the work I’ve had in my job interview for this job has been either pitch work or spec work or just work I’ve done for free, or even just passion projects, just on Instagram. Just stuff I’ve wanted to do and practice.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it’s really good. Like I said, I do think that’s the best way to go about doing it. There’s a lot of stuff online about do not work for free and there’s obviously situations where it doesn’t make sense to. And that’s typically instances where people are taken advantage of graphic designers. But, they’re not taking advantage of you Mark. You’re giving them something that is of value to them, but it’s probably of more value to you in the long run because it’s allowing you to reach your goals. And it’s instances like that where I think it’s beneficial.

I think it was Paula Scher, she said that if you do that, then the client loses all right to have any control over it. I don’t know how that worked in your case, but I think yeah I see nothing wrong with it, especially if it’s for the type of thing that you wanted to do.

Mark Hirons: That is actually quite a good point. If you are doing work for cheap or free, make sure that you do the work you want to do and not get dictated too much by the client. So with the program covers, I said to them I’m doing this for free so I want complete control of the cover. So, I can make it whatever I wanted it to be. Obviously be reasonable, you can’t just draw rude pictures on it. But you’ve got to have, yeah, chance to get dictated too much if you are doing free work, make it about your portfolio.

Ian Paget: Yeah. One thing with your story, you kind of brushed over the whole Blue Dear thing. When did the Blue Dear brand come into the scene? And how has that helped you with everything that you’ve been doing over the last, what is it like five years or so?

Mark Hirons: Yeah. So, it’s funny, as I’ve sort of levelled up, if it was a video game I’ve levelled up, I’ve called myself a different name each time. So I started off at MHGFX, which was Mark Hirons Graphics, which was sort of on the back of doing work around college clans and just people in America my own age just playing games. And then when I went to small businessy stuff, I called myself Blue Dear Design. And then that was back into school starting college, so I would’ve been seventeen, eighteen. And then I levelled up again and dropped the design. I remember a good conversation with you on Twitter about that.

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Mark Hirons: So I dropped the design. We talked about the future of it. That actually really sticks in my mind, that conversation.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I think I told you just called yourself Blue Deer, I think it’s more to the point and it’s better for you. I think we even spoke about the logo at that point, I remember you having something that just had antlers and I’m like, “Mark, just have a Blue Deer and forget the rest and then you don’t even need a work mark as your logo, because a Blue Deer is enough for a company called Blue Deer”.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I mean that was it. That’s probably the logo was probably nicked off shutter stock or somewhere as really, I think it was very close interpretative back then. This was obviously starting out, that’s what you do, is what some people do starting out when you see something on the internet you think, “Oh that’s awesome. I want to try to get something close to that”. And they end up just pretty much ripping off without realising. So yeah.

Then levelled up to, I dropped the design bit, talking about being in the future and wanting to be next to that pentagram and all these big time agencies. And I thought yeah, Pentagram don’t call themselves Pentagram design, I’ll just call myself Blue Deer, it’s more diverse. And then yeah, and then this year, got the new job and dropped it altogether and called myself Hirons Creative, just for a bit of a change. And I think it just felt like the right time to move away from all that stuff. I know other companies have used Blue Deer Design, so it’s nice just to get something a bit more personal and something a bit, well relating back to me and my name.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah I found interesting because prior to this interview, I didn’t actually know that you did that. It was just yesterday going through, putting some questions together, that I actually noticed that you changed it. And I found it interesting because I remember when we spoke about, because for listeners, me and Mark, we speak quite a lot. And there was a point where we were talking about what you want to do with it longterm and you were saying that you wanted to turn it into a team, you want to hire people. You had all these big ambitions. And I know that you have collaborated with people, I’ve seen you do that. So it’s not, I can see that was potentially the way that it was going.

But it’s interesting, this change that you’ve done now, you are implying that you’re no longer going down that route of building an agency. You are focusing in on building your own personal brand. Is that the plan?

Mark Hirons: Yeah. I’m building, at the moment, I’m not focused too much on my freelance work or doing any personal work. With a nine to five and obviously it being my ideal job, I’m pretty much all focused on that right now. And that was another reason to change the name and go to something else. But, yeah I’m not sure where I’m going to take that in the future, but my real focus is on my own podcast and on my own, my job.

Ian Paget: Well yeah. I think that’s, it’s actually quite nice to hear you say that because a lot of graphic designers aim to build their own agency or work for themselves and stuff like that. But it’s quite nice to speak to someone that set a goal to work for a company, in this case a football club, and be quite content in that way. That was always my personal plan. I know now I am full time freelance, but I don’t think that ever needs to be the goal. I think it’s good to aim to be a graphic designer in house within a team doing the type of work that you love and it’s nice to see that you’ve taken that direction.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I think we’re sort of living in a world where everyone wants to be an entrepreneur, because it’s portrayed in a very different way to what it actually is. Freelance life is, it’s almost portrayed as the dream, like you’ve made it, you can work for yourself. And you can do nothing all day and still have money. And it’s nothing like that really. It’s a lot of hard work. And yeah, it takes a lot of effort to get your name out there and build up the network and the contacts that you need to even just your name in the local area. I mean it’s such a large effort. And I just, looking back I can see where I didn’t do it as much and I can see, I’ve analysed it a little bit and see where I could’ve improved and done better.

But yeah, it’s interesting to see how the goals have changed. But for me and a bit of advice for anyone listening is always have a name, always have an idea. It doesn’t matter if it changes, but at least have a name because it means that you’re on a track, in a tunnel really to aim at something. I love that.

Ian Paget: Yeah, we’ve spoken about this a lot. I like my long-term goals, having that somewhere out there goal, but that goal can change. The most important thing is that you are actively working towards that goal. So if for whatever reason it does change, you then obviously start working towards that goal rather than the original one. But I think having something to work towards, it helps you to make choices. So like with you, like you mentioned about doing that free work, it wasn’t just random free work, it was free work for a sports club. So spending that time on that project made it worth it for you.

Mark Hirons: It’s a bit like deliberate practice and testing things as well. I mean, I’ve done so many things that haven’t worked out. There’s probably more things that haven’t worked out then that have worked out. But the fact that you keep trying stuff and you keep testing stuff, it means that you know that doesn’t work, it means that’s not a good road to go down. So you’re sort of pinball, you’re basically a pinball in a pinball machine bouncing around off different walls, trying to find your path and trying to get down the little hole between the two flappy things.

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Mark Hirons: Great analogy.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I just want to say as well some thoughts from myself with freelancing and working for a company. Working for a company is so much easier because obviously you go to work nine to five thirty, or six or whatever, you work and then you come home. And your life is free and you get a guaranteed income, you get support, you get training. I mean if it’s a good company, you get support and you get training. I’m sure, I mean we’re obviously not able to say who the sports club is, but I’m sure they’re going to be supporting you and you’ll be going to all the games and all sorts of stuff, you’re going to absolutely love it Mark.

Mark Hirons: Yeah. Yeah, I can’t, every time I say it it’s like is this real? Yeah, I don’t really have much to say, it’s amazing.

Ian Paget: But, so just to add to that, in comparison freelance work, a lot of my time is spent trying to get money. So that’s always my focus is focused on sending over the invoices, sending over the contracts, making sure they get signed, chasing people to get the payments and stuff like that. And you need to actively be looking for clients. I don’t think freelance is necessarily the wonderful thing a lot of people imagine it to be, you’re basically running a business but rather then having separate people doing your accounts, doing your sales, doing your management, account management and stuff like that, you are doing all of that. So actually when you work freelance, probably like 70% of your work is not graphic design.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: 50%, there’s a large volume of it that’s a lot more than graphic design. So I don’t think it’s for everyone. I think there’s a lot of benefits to working for a company or in your case a sports club.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: That makes it, yeah I think I don’t think it’s a bad thing, I think there’s a lot of benefits to both sides of it.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, it’s usually dependent on the person that you are. And unfortunately that way that you’ll figure that out is by trying all those things. So started off by doing internships and market experience and design studios, I realised very quickly I didn’t want to work in a design studio. Even the parents and stuff saying I can’t get a job in a design studio. When I was trying to do it freelance and trying to make it for myself, even though it was harder, a lot harder than working in a studio and learning from people, it was something that I preferred to do. And then you sort of realise that after awhile that I didn’t want to do that anymore and then you try something else and then you try something else. And then you get fed up with it all and try to find a job that you like. That’s sort of the pinball machine of my life, yeah.

Ian Paget: Where on the topic of getting that job, how did you actually, how did that actually happen? Because obviously we’ve spoken about you focusing more on the niche of sports related work and doing some voluntary work to build up your portfolio. So you’ve got a body of work, what was the actual thing that instigated that interview? Did you contact them and just reach out to them or did you find a job advertisement going or did you network with someone and they connected you to them? How did that actually happen?

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I was looking or jobs in sports and trying to find somewhere, it felt like the right time. I just, it wasn’t even looking for anything, I wasn’t even applying for a job ad, it was someone messaged me on LinkedIn and I thought okay, they may have just found me. I’m not sure if this will go anywhere. But it was actually a recruitment agency, they specialise in creative recruitment. They’re actually called Creative Recruitment and they specialise in designers and illustrators and putting them into nine to fives. And they just messaged me out of the blue. And then they said, “Oh, we’ve got a real good opportunity we’d like to put you forward for it”. And then they did. And they’ve actually got links with the club I work for. And actually appointed the guy I sit next to in the same club.

So yeah, they’ve got links to them and then it just happened. I had three interviews and it worked, they liked me.

Ian Paget: I haven’t heard a story like that before Mark. Normally, I mean anytime I’ve needed to apply for a job and to be fair I haven’t done that in a long time, and I’m sure listeners will feel this too, you spend loads of time looking online, applying, applying, applying, applying, applying, contacting agencies, stuff like this. It’s a slog. But you sat there, they approached you out of the blue, put you up for it, done. So what were you doing on LinkedIn? I mean was she posting your work on LinkedIn or was there something about your profile? Did you add something to your profile to say that you wanted to work in sports?

Mark Hirons: Yeah. I was applying for other stuff at the same time. I mean, I should’ve asked this question. I’m not sure if this is a good answer or not, but there might be something and I’m not sure what you guys believe or people listening believe, but I think there’s something in the universe. If you put enough effort into something, eventually it will reward you if you’re going the right direction, if the times right. But, to be more practical I think I was just posting about, I was posting about sports design, I was talking to sports designers, I was doing a podcast about sports design. I think it was all the signs were there that I wanted to be in this industry. I probably couldn’t have given a stronger signal to someone saying hire me.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I’m curious to know if, I mean you probably don’t know the answer to this, but if you search on LinkedIn for sports graphic designer if you come up in the top few.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I don’t know the answer to that one.

Ian Paget: Because yeah, it’d be interesting because if you are posting on LinkedIn sports related graphic design content and sports related graphic design work and sports related podcast content, all that sort of stuff, it makes sense that a recruitment company that’d be going on LinkedIn, the way that they probably do it is to type in a few key words like graphic design, sports and then they narrow it down by location. You’re probably in the right location, you probably come up for sports related terms. Graphic designer, probably the right age that they wanted. So, the recruitment companies like this guy is perfect. Put you down. And obviously everything went from there.

And I don’t know how many people you were up against in that interview, but I doubt they’ve done everything that you’ve done Mark. I doubt they have that body of relevant work and created that, I think the podcast content, you can see all the passion that you’ve got towards that subject. So you made yourself easy to find by posting on LinkedIn, posting on social media and also creating that content, all that content that you spent years doing. And I remember at the beginning you were closed to giving up and I’m like no, no, keep going. It’ll be worth it one day. Creating all that stuff, I have no doubt that’s what it was that sparked that initial inquiry.

Mark Hirons: You’ve made a really nice point there about the saying that I’d be easy to find. Such an important thing for young people listening, or anyone listening, if people cannot find you, you need to be easy to find. You can’t be on the fifth page of LinkedIn or something, you need to work out, and actually I know it’s rubbish and I’ve talked to you before years ago, done nothing about it. But stuff like that, and just being in the right circles, talking to the right people, making sure people know you, networking.

I was listening to someone else talk about networking and I’ve only just realised that what I was doing through the podcast was pretty much a position to network and talk to people. But by doing so I was also doing the podcast, was also building an audience and had people listening and bringing people of value as well. I mean it wasn’t, I didn’t realise that was sort of networking at the same time until a few months ago when I heard someone else talk about it.

So yeah, that’s what it is. You’ve just got to be talking to everyone and trying to get done the most you can.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I mean that’s what a lot of these things boil down to, even, it doesn’t matter who it is, whether you’re a business, whether you’re a freelancer, someone looking for a job, looking for work. You only get those opportunities if people can find you. So they’ll be looking for someone and the way that they’re going to look, they’re either going to use a search engine, in that case it was LinkedIn’s search engine, or they’re going to use something like Google or they’re going to use YouTube or they’re going to use iTunes. There’s endless search engines out there, or they might ask a friend and they might go, “Do you know anyone that can do this?”.

And so what that means is you need to proactively connect with people and network with people and stuff like that. And this actually leads nicely to the kind of next set of questions I did have for you, because you are one of the best examples I know of someone that networks like hell. And like I said you probably don’t realise that you’re doing it, because when people think about networking they think going to a networking event, wearing a suit and taking a pack of business cards. But it’s not like that. You’re making friends. But you’re really good at that. Would you mind giving some tips as to how you network? Whether you felt like you’ve networked or not.

Mark Hirons: Yeah. Best tip, going on Dave Clayton. He’s someone I’ve learned a lot of advice from and just followed. Yeah, so basically just you’ve got to be passionate about it, you’ve got to want to do it. And I’ve tried networking events and I’ve tried other things like that and it just felt really fake. It just felt, it’s been horrible to be honest, it’s not a good environment, it’s not a real environment. It feels like people are just there to talk about themselves and you’ve got to be interested in the other people that you’re speaking to as well. You can’t just be there to try and get a sale. I mean it’s so much easier to network when I’m with designers and within your own community because you’re all passionate about a single topic.

It’s so different between networking with clients and trying to get clients and then networking with other designers because you’ve got so much in common with other designers. It’s completely different. But, I mean to give some really practical advice, just if you’re trying to network with other designers and other creatives, just you’ve got to message them and just find a bit of work you really like of theirs and say I love your work. I would love to have a fifteen minute chat with you or just a quick chat to give any advice you’ve got for me. I’m just starting in our industry, just explain your situation and just say hi. But, yeah be honest about it all and if you don’t like their work, don’t message them. Just stuff like that.

And then with clients I guess it would be, just explaining that you can help them out and what they can get. Make it focused on what you can give them rather than what you can get from them. If that makes sense.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it does. I think with you Mark, you’ve done a lot of networking without realising it was networking.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Just because there’s that, like I said you picture something when you think of networking and there are actual networking events that are called networking events and generally my experience with them, people that go to them, they’re going there because they want a job or they want clients. But everyone is there doing the same thing. And I don’t think a lot of people going there realise that, that no one’s actually willing to buy anything or do anything, they’re just going there because they want something from everybody. And what you’ve done within the graphic design space anyway, I’m not sure how you’ve been doing it with clients, but what you’ve done with other graphic designers, you’re making friends. And I think people forget that that’s what networking is, it’s just knowing other people.

Mark Hirons: Yeah. It’s so important because a lot of young people don’t realise this, you can make friends with other designers, you may just get work from the other designers. And they can give you work too. If they’ve got projects that they can’t take on or they don’t have enough time or it’s not enough money for them, if you’re a younger designer and you’ve got enough talent, you’re going to be handed projects by your friends. It is just about making friends and being honest. That’s the key to it really.

Ian Paget: Yeah and I think having, sorry to keep going back to this, but having that goal and telling people what that is, you never know. I mean you’ve reached your goal now, but you never know once you’re in that circle and you, maybe you made a friend with a graphic designer that also works in that sports thing, they might be able to connect you with someone or point you in the right direction or whatever because they’re aware what that is. So yeah, making friends, treat networking. Forget the word networking, make friends with as many people as you can.

I think you have to let people know what you want to achieve. I think that’s one of the important things. You can’t just make friends with someone and just go to the pub with them every night and never talk about work. I think you need to make them aware of what you can do and let them know that you can help or with other graphic designers, let them know if they can you offer your any advice or anything like that. And that’s what you’ve been doing. That’s where it works.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, especially if you want to make it about work. If you want to get, yeah recommendations because you can’t just have friends in design. And that’s the best thing is really you shouldn’t go into it wanting to get something in return. I can’t stress this enough. There’s so many people out there, similar situations to me, when I was messaging people and trying to build up a little bit of a name, they message people asking for stuff in return. And it’s so important to just go out there and appreciate building up a connection and them giving you the time already just to message you back. You’ve got to be really honest, you’ve got to be really honest about yourself and do a lot of searching of what you like and what you enjoy because that’ll make it a lot easier as well.

Obviously sports was the thing for me, networking if you want to use that word again, chatting with sports designers and illustrators was easy because it’s something I was passionate about. And if you’re really into Disney or really into cartoons, then finding someone that does comic book illustrations or Disney characters, then go and chat with them and enjoy learning about it. And see what comes from it.

Ian Paget: I wouldn’t mind talking about your podcast as well, because that’s how we originally met each other.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I remember you reached out to me, I think I might’ve been your first guest Mark.

You’ve done like 171 episodes now, which is insane. But yeah, you are really, you’ve worked really hard on that. Have you actually been released an episode every single week now for years?

Mark Hirons: Yeah, pretty much. There’s a couple of weeks we’ve sort of missed but then we’ve made it up a couple weeks having two, three, four episodes. But yeah, so I did a podcast before the podcast which was called The Design Hustle Podcast, which was, it does make a little bit of sense. Pretty bad in the creative awful podcast, but anyway, yeah so you were the first other guest, the first I’d spoke to. And I don’t want to look back on it now, because it must be horrendous. I’m sorry about that. I mean, yeah. We’ve made a good friendship of it, so that’s what I’m glad that’s come of it.

But yeah, I found a video episode of me talking, just trying to break down re brands, talking about stuff I’ve got no idea what I’m on about, back in 2016. So four years ago. And I just cringe at so much of it. But it shows how much progression I’ve made.

Ian Paget: Why were you doing that at that time? I’m going to be straight up honest with this, I obviously I’ve got reasons for doing a podcast, like I want to speak to my heroes and friends and stuff like that. But I’ve got a sponsor, so I’ve got a monetary benefit to doing the show. There’s loads of benefits to doing a podcast, but why were you doing it at that time? What’s driven you to keep recording podcast after podcast after podcast, videos and all sorts of stuff? You’ve been doing loads of stuff Mark.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, going back to the original thing of having a goal. I mean the goal was changed for the podcast hugely over the years. And now I finally feel like we’ve got, I say we because I’ve just brought Hannah on, who’s American female designer. She’s awesome. She’s about to graduate university in America. So we’ve finally got a plan, an actual direction for the podcast. After three years doing it, we’ve got an actual plan. And I’ve got tons and tons of notes up on the wall there.

But anyway, I think it was just to learn. Originally, that was the original goal, as you know, the original original goal was to build up, be this massive internet star, massive design influencer, which really quickly changed because I’ve realised that’s a silly goal to have. To be an influencer, that’s just not something I was interested in and a lot of people shouldn’t be interested in. So, yeah. That changed to wanting sort of have powerful people and also just learn myself as well. And that’s been the biggest driver for the podcast is to grow my own knowledge of design and talk about it in a more confident way and be a better designer, be a better thinker and communicator.

Yeah, there’s so many personal benefits to this podcast and I definitely wouldn’t be where I am without it.

Ian Paget: I love that you recognise that early on, because I think a lot of people when they start doing these things, they do it because they want to be some famous big superstar.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: To some degree I had one of those same goals early on, I wanted to win awards and I wanted to be a key speaker at design events and all this sort of stuff. But, I’ve been fortunate enough that I have actually had my work featured in books and I have had those spreads in magazines and featured on a number of podcasts now too. I have done what I set out to do.

But I tell you what Mark, and I know we’ve spoken about this before, with those magazines, I don’t know what you imagine. I think you imagine that everyone’s going to put you on a pedestal and they’re all cheering and they’re like, “Mark, Mark, Mark”. But the reality is, you get the magazine, it comes through, you’re like oh yeah, that was cool. You show your friends and they’re like, “Oh yeah, well done”. After that, you fold it up, you stick it on your shelf and you just carry on.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: It’s not as fulfilling as you would imagine it to be because you just reach that point and then it’s like now what? And I’ve spoken to people like Will Patterson, and he’s kind of hit that same point as well. It’s like now what? I think you need a larger goal beyond that. And having that larger goal is what ultimately turns you into the influencer, like no influencer set out to be an influencer. They set out to help people. Well you learn that from a really young age and I think that’s why you’re able to just keep going with everything because the purpose for doing it has changed.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I wouldn’t, I hope you’re not calling me an influencer, because I don’t like the term anyway.

Ian Paget: No, I don’t like it either.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I don’t want to be one. I’d rather call the people on the podcast, because that’s really who’s, if you want to say, influencing me, the people on the podcast and they’re influencing the guest and they’re giving advice to the guest and they’re the ones that are showing the knowledge to the people listening. And that’s what it’s all about, is sharing knowledge in the community. And what I’m trying to do now with the podcast and everything is build up this massive bank of advice and blog posts and just this hub where people can, young designers especially and graduates and students can come over and watch it all and learn from that as an online resource.

The whole aim now is to build the biggest online resource for young creatives and that’s a real honest direct guide to starting out in the industry.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It’s another interesting thing with what you’ve been doing as well and you’re one person that does it really well is, I mean you read all this advice, I know you’re a Gary V fan as well, you met him as well. They talk about create content, create content, create content, all this sort of stuff.

Mark Hirons: Yeah.

Ian Paget: And what people do is, what most young designers do, most young designers I know, friends, everyone does it, they watch someone like Chris Do, they read a few books and they never worked a day in their life, they just fiddled about with Photoshop or whatever. But what they start doing from day one, the moment that they go on camera or the moment that they record some content, they start giving advice. And the advice is not their advice, it’s advice they’ve heard someone else say and they’re just spouting out the same old stuff that’s got no experience behind it, nothing. It’s very false and when you’re a few years into it, I mean you’re probably seeing it now, you’ll be seeing sixteen year olds regurgitating all this advice they’ve heard from people like Chris Do. And they’ll just be repeating it.

It’s not beneficial to anyone, it’s liquidated down information and you have absolutely no experience to back it up. But where I’m going with this, you’re different. Every single thing that you do is from your perspective, what you’re learning right now and the lessons that you’ve learned and it’s nice, like it’s so fresh to watch. I really enjoy watching your content because it’s real, it’s honest, it’s open. And I think that’s one of the things that sets you apart, it was probably one of the reasons why you were able to get a job at a major sports club so quickly because you’re not fake, you’re just you.

I don’t know if you learned that from somewhere, but everything that you’re putting out is very genuine and very true and I think that’s going to make you the influencer that you don’t want to be in twenty years time, thirty years time. You’re going to be, I’d like to think that you’ll be that person that a lot of people look up to and are inspired by because everything that you share is based on your own personal experiences.

Mark Hirons: I’d like the podcast to be the thing that people look up to and all the people on that have helped me out, like give us an hour or two hours or however long they’ve been on the podcast or their time, I’d like them to be the people, the people I’m learning from obviously. And that’s, I would be lying as well if I said I hadn’t done that in the past. I’m sure if you look back on my old videos, I’ve privated now on YouTube, that I’ve done this. I’ve looked at re brands and read literally what it says on design news websites. And I’m pretty sure I’ve done that in the past, I know I’ve done that in the past.

Ian Paget: I have too. I think a lot of us do it, but some people keep doing it and it’s frustrating to watch when you’re more experienced because it’s so fake. Like I said, some people can do this for years but for a long time, you only did that for a short period of time, but most of the time you’ve been very true and very genuine and all of that. Everything that you were sharing is from you and it’s not, it’s lessons that you’ve learned yourself, it’s from your experiences. And I think that will make it a lot more relatable, especially for younger designers just starting out.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I think I picked that up from someone I was listening to, it was Gary V. But, one of the biggest things as well, I’m a huge believer in that if you like it, I don’t know if you believe in it or not, it’s true in my mind, that you’re the accumulative person of the five people that you spend the most time around or the five people that you listen to the most. I’ve got six people on my wall, a picture of six people on my wall that have impacted my mind and my brain and my thoughts, my thinking and my mentality so so so much. I mean Aaron Draplin, Gary V, Joe Rogan Jordan Peterson and Conor Mcgregor, which unfortunately at the moment he’s done a few naughty things. But, yeah just the mentality of it and each one’s different. And if you pick certain parts of different people, and I’ve never met anyone, like I met two of those but not, I don’t know them on a personal level.

So yeah, it’s learning from people online and really being, taking things that you like about certain people and trying to involve them in your own life. And that was one of the things, is being honest and learned that from Draplin hugely, being honest and open and just being you. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it’s really good Mark and that’s nice to know that you’ve got those key figures worked out, who you want to be like. I’ve heard that saying as well and generally people imagine those, the people that you hang around with. I mean it kind of is, but things like listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos and having conversations online, those, I think that all plays part of that. And those people that you listen to, they influence you quite significantly and they steer you in the direction that you want to go in.

I think that’s an inspiring way to approach it, is to actually pick to those figures and follow those people and look up to them. I’ve done that myself with a lot of people reading any books, their autobiographies. Draplin’s one of the people that I’ve looked up to a lot too. And I’ve probably watched everything that he’s done and I know you’ve met him as well, at the same time. We’ve been able to meet him and speak with him.

Yes, it’s nice that, we’re fortunate that, in the graphic design space, you can actually do that. I think it’s good to look up to people and learn from them.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s important to have people like that. I mean, it depends who you listen to because I think I’ve listened to more advice and knowledge from those six people then my parents over the last three to four years. It can really, it really does depend on who you’re listening to and what advice you’ve taken aboard.

You try and listen to all of it, because there’s a good point that Jordan Peterson made is assume the person you’re talking to knows more than you. And that’s such an important valid point because that means you’re listening to everyone, that means you’re listening to all the advice. But you don’t have to take it on if it’s really bad advice, you don’t have to take it on, you just be polite and listen to it and appreciate them sharing their words.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It’s a nice way to think about it. Well Mark, we’ve nearly done an hour so I’m going to throw one last question out to you. I know you created an event, so you’ve done your creative waffle podcast for a long time. And last year you created an event and I think for you that was like a pinnacle moment in your life. All about work or connecting with all those people, all the friends that you’ve made, putting them all together and creating that event. Would you want to close off the interview talking about what you’ve done with that live event?

Mark Hirons: Sure, yeah. Absolutely, thank you. The creative waffle live event was based around the podcast and it was also almost like a celebration of the show, bringing people together for one night, sort of event of talks, evening of talks and Q and A and questions and just a celebration of all the hard work that we’ve put in for the last three years and all the people that have been on the podcast and the advice. So yeah. And planning to do more of them as well. I mean it’s something that I love. I love going to design conferences and events and to have something under my own name, the podcast name has always been one of those goals. And when I ticked it off, it’s a huge relief. And now just sort of try and build on that, try and build on what you’ve done.

So now planning to do another one, outside London so yeah, hopefully if the coronavirus goes away.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I’ll be there, I’ll be there. If we can, I’ll be there.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, that’s the plan. But yeah, it’s just been a huge learning experience and that was, well this year’s one is definitely going to be more planned then last years event.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So any things that got in the way or any lessons that you learned from doing that? Because well I know myself, I’ve helped create events, I’ve never run one myself and I know it’s a huge task. But you kind of went, you just jumped into the deep end and just created it. Was there any massive lessons that you learned or any big mistakes that you’ve learned from by doing that?

Mark Hirons: Yeah, absolutely. Don’t try and do it without any money, because you’ll feel guilty forever for not paying your friends to come speak. And yeah, one of the biggest things is to go out and just try it. Like the pinball machine effects, just if it doesn’t work, if it didn’t work, if five people showed up then we would’ve just gone to the pub and had a chat. So, it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work. That was one of the things I learned, luckily it sort of did work out. But yeah, I think it’s just trying things.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it’s good. Like I said, when you start out you obviously had that dream and we started off at the beginning with the goal setting, I think goals can be seen as dreams. But the difference with a goal versus a dream is that you can actually work towards it and reach it and I think you did that with the events as well. And yeah, like you said, first time you’re obviously going to make some mistakes, but then you learned from that and with the next one you won’t make those same mistakes again, but you’ll probably learn some more lessons. And if you keep going the way that you are Mark, that creative waffle event, live event, or whatever you end up calling it, I think it’ll be a big thing and it’ll be well known and be a successful event. So keep going as you are, I think, it’s been nice knowing you and watching you progress. I mean you’re still, I don’t know how old you are now, but you’re still young-

Mark Hirons: 22.

Ian Paget: It’s been nice watching you grow and progress and I’m hoping this podcast and your story will be inspiring to people of all ages because your podcast Mark, you inspired me to do my podcast. I don’t know if I ever told you that, but yeah I remember seeing you getting on people like Draplin, it’s like if he can get Draplin, I can get Draplin, things like that. It kind of gave me the kick like if this twenty year old kid’s doing this, I can do this too. And I’m sure people aren’t already aware of you, they’ll hopefully look at what you’re doing and think, oh dam this kid’s doing some epic stuff. I need to do this too.

I think you’ll probably be more of an influencer longterm than what you probably realise.

Mark Hirons: Yeah, I mean don’t get too competitive because that’s one problem I’ve had and I’m trying to get better at it is not get too competitive of other people.

Ian Paget: Keep going as you are. Just keep working away and aiming towards your goals. Don’t worry about other people. Focus on what you’re doing and keep going as you are.

Mark Hirons: It’s easy to say that.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. But I know, I think you’ve been keeping an eye on your own goals and dreams and ambitions because you’ve done it Mark. I mean look at you, you’ve got 171 podcast episodes now, which is crazy. You work for a major league football club now. And you’ve got your podcast channel, you spoke to all the big names in the industry. I mean you interviewed Sagmeister and Paula Scher and Draplin and a lot of these big names that I’ve emailed, I haven’t been able to get a yes. I don’t know what you did, but you’ve done a lot already in your life. And I think it’s inspiring and I’m looking forward to seeing where you take everything in like the next five years or so.

Mark Hirons: That’s very kind yeah. I feel like that’s it now. I’m ready to go.

Ian Paget: Cool, thanks Mark. I think that’s probably a good point to wrap up the interview, but thanks so much for coming on.

Mark Hirons: No, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

‍