Succeeding as a Logo Designer in India

Ian Paget: I think we need to go right back to the beginning. So can you share with us how you started out in your graphic design career?

Blesson Varghese: Yeah, for sure. First of all, thank you very much for having me on the show. It's an honour, because I just want to point this out that, when I started out freelancing, and when I started out design career, I used to listen to Logo Geek podcasts each and every episode and learn things and extract things from them. Because I'm a self-taught designer, more than that, I'm from a country that doesn't have proper design education or quality design education. So I used podcasts and YouTube videos was to learn from, and Logo Geek podcast was one of them, because, obviously, I was focusing on logo design niche. So right now sharing my story here is such an honour for me. So I really, really appreciate and thank Ian for having me on here. It's an honour for me.

Ian Paget: Oh, you're very welcome. I've been following your journey since you started. I'm well aware that you've only been doing this for a couple of years, but the reason why I wanted to get you on is because I feel you've been doing well. And I feel even though you are relatively early in your journey, you are doing a lot of things that other people aren't doing. I feel that you're doing things in the right way. So I'm keen to dive into that story and learn more about you. It's an honour for me to have you on, just as much as your honour to jump on.

Blesson Varghese: Thank you.

Ian Paget: So I do appreciate you being here. And I hope the audience are going to enjoy learning about your story.

Blesson Varghese: For sure.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So go for it, I mean, tell us, how did you get into logo design originally?

Blesson Varghese: Wow. So let's go back to when I was doing college, because that's how, and that's when things started out. So for people, those who might need a little bit of background, I'm from the country India. And more than that, I am from the Southern part of India that is Kerala, for anyone wanting a little bit of context. But I've been living in the part of North India, ever since I was born and brought up here. So we don't have much of the design education, or let's say, the way Western culture or the way Western countries have developed design throughout the years, India is still far behind from them. And that being the reason we don't have design as one of the mainstream careers.

So when it comes to choosing a career to opt for after college, or maybe after school, students usually focus on being a doctor, being an engineer, or a government official and all of these mainstream careers. So design wasn't really a career that people would choose, generally or usually. But I had a very small interest into design for some weird reason. I don't know why, if someone asks me, "Why did you have that?" I don't have an answer to that. Because not like my parents are artistic or into the creative field or none of my family members are, so I don't have an explanation to that, but I did. I did had interest on design and visual aesthetics.

But obviously I didn't get the needed exposure to these platforms or these ideas or freelancing or graphic design. But in college I picked up a Photoshop, somehow I picked up Photoshop, and I was like, "Oh, this is quite a great tool, and something that I love." Before Photoshop, I used Microsoft PowerPoint to design business cards, flyers, and posters for friends and families, because that's how we start, right?

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Blesson Varghese: So I used Microsoft PowerPoint for a very long time, and I think that was my entry to design in itself. It was my start to the journey I would say. So PowerPoint was where I started out, understanding the concepts of icon, colours, typography, and all of that stuff. Then I-

Ian Paget: Can I just quickly interrupt?

Blesson Varghese: Sure.

Ian Paget: So you mentioned that you'd picked up Photoshop, what was you actually studying then?

Blesson Varghese: I was studying, so I just want to give a quick introduction to the education that I had. So-

Ian Paget: Sure.

Blesson Varghese: ... I was in my school, I picked up science, that is biology, so that I could pursue medical education. That's what I was thinking when I was in school that I would become a doctor, because obviously that's how society wanted things to be. So I wanted to be a doctor, but few months in, I figured out that this is not for me, because I was finding it so hard. I wasn't enjoying studying medical studies or biology or chemistry or physics and all of that stuff. I wasn't enjoying it. I was struggling to go through all of this. And when I passed school, when it came to choose a stream for college, I decided to go for a general course, like BBA, which is bachelor's in business administration.

And I opted for that, which is not a very hard topic to cover, because it's more of like a generalisation course, where you understand the basic aspects of business administration, management, and all of that stuff. So I was doing bachelor's in business administration, that's when I picked up Photoshop. That's where I got to know about this thing called of Photoshop. And that was my entry point to design in itself.

And I learned a few things here and there, photo manipulation tricks. That's how you find things on YouTube about Photoshop, retouching our photos and adding things here and there. So I was just playing around. I was doing my thing, just fooling around with design and its own aspects. And then I somehow picked up something for logos. I was always intrigued by logos, like, how do people do this? Are there people behind the scenes doing this? Or are these machines doing this? Because I didn't had enough information to actually think about these things, so I didn't have enough exposure that there are people, those who are logo designers doing this full-time.

So I wanted to know more. I had this curiosity. And I was looking up online and I could find that people do this, graphic designers do this, which was amazing, but I didn't looked into it seriously. But on my last semester in my college, the way college system works here in India is, in your last semester, there are campus placements. I don't know what they're called everywhere else. But what really happens is, before you pass out from the college, companies come to your college and they do interviews. And if they find people, those who are opt for their position, their job position, they would hire you. And as soon as you pass out from college, you get admitted to that company or you get a position in that company.

So in my last semester in college, I got selected for two companies, for job placements. I got selected for two companies, but the most unfortunate thing happened or rather I would say the most fortunate thing happened, because what I'll share next will make sense, is that I never failed in any of my education history since my childhood. But on that last semester, I failed in one subject for three months, for just three months, I failed in one subject. Now the way these job placements work is, if you don't pass out from the college, the job offer is no more valid, right?

Ian Paget: Wow.

Blesson Varghese: So now I have two job offers from two companies, but it's no more valid, because I haven't passed my college. Which if you think, from a logical perspective, was the most unfortunate thing you could imagine. Because I was thinking, all right, let's get into job, let's do all this job things, nine-to-five things, and get moving with life. But unfortunately that happened and I had to be home. I had to wait for the next six months for the re-exams. And that's where I picked up doing design. That's where I started doing design. I was like, although I have enough time right now, let's just try on this thing and see how it goes. So during that time, during that timeframe of six months, I started learning more about design, and that's how I started my Instagram page, just for fun. Just for fun, let's just pass our time productively, and maybe try do something to that might work out. And-

Ian Paget: I find this absolutely fascinating, and it is interesting, because we come from very different parts of the world. So I've, obviously, grew up in the UK, in Europe, and we have here a very strong history of graphic design. There are universities, there are courses, plenty of books here, where you can, I guess, stumble across graphic design in some way. Because it's very much embedded in everything we do, logos are literally everywhere. I assume it's probably the same where you are, but here everywhere you go, logo design or graphic design is a part of culture here. But it's really interesting to learn more out your story.

And I really feel that there's going to be a lot of people listening that are going to resonate with your story. I'm well aware that there's a large number of listeners from India and Asia. So, yeah, it's interesting to know that there aren't the courses there, culture does kind of force you down certain route. And I can imagine before the internet, it was probably very hard to even discover graphic design or to get into graphic design in any way. So in terms of learning, am I right in understanding that you literally, probably, using the internet to learn everything?

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely. For just some context, let me just tell you that, I even didn't know that there's a thing called freelancing, where people do things on their own. When I started out, I had no idea about this. I had literally no... And some people think that I make this up, but why would I do this? In the sense that I didn't even know that there's a thing called freelancing, where you do things on your own, and it's not a registered company or anything you do all on your own. You are the business owner. You do all client talks, you do everything from finances, managing clients, social media, and everything. I didn't even know that this existed. So that's the level of naiveness that I had when I started out doing design and freelancing.

Ian Paget: So where were you going to learn this? Was it just a case of jumping on Google and searching?

Blesson Varghese: So when I started on my Instagram page, I just started uploading random things like random logo designs or random posters, random typography stuff, just to get it started, and make use of the time. But-

Ian Paget: Was it just stuff that you was finding or things that you were doing yourself?

Blesson Varghese: I was doing it myself. I was checking up YouTube tutorials and I was just redoing those tutorials and probably, maybe adding some things here and there, or maybe using different colours to make it different and just uploading them on Instagram. Like, "Hey, see, I designed things, and this is what I designed," that sort of thing. It was just very naive stuff. I wasn't having any strategy, any target audience, any marketing tactic or nothing like that, like literally nothing.

And I found out that the thing that people do on their own is called freelancing, obviously, through Google. And internet was my best friend, obviously, because there was no other place that I could literally just go up to. Let's say the culture in the United States or the United Kingdom, it's that you find so many bunch of people around you this thing happens like this thing exists. But in my case I didn't had any of my friends. I didn't had any of my family members. I didn't had any of my seniors in college or anything doing this thing, so that I can look up to them and maybe reach out to them and ask a few things here and there.

I didn't had any of that. So internet was my only place. And right now when I think of it, it's quite scary to be very honest, because you could go any route, right?

Ian Paget: Oh, yeah.

Blesson Varghese: But things just turned out well. And first of all, I'm just happy that I didn't land up in a place where I was focusing too much on platforms. Like those platforms where you offer your services, platforms like Fiverr. Because if you start on those platforms, I tend to think that you have a tendency to stick to them, because you get comfortable with those platforms. But just somehow I find out that you could do this on your own social media gathering clients and all of these things. So, yeah, answering your question, internet was my best friend.

Ian Paget: I think you've been very lucky, because I taught myself primarily. And one of the downsides of that is that you don't know what you don't know.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: So there's a lot of self taught graphic designers out there that are doing well, but, yeah, if you don't have anyone to look up to or you don't have any good resources or references or anything to learn from, then how do you know when searching on Google, what to learn?

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: And it sounds like, I mean, being completely honest, I feel you got into it at a very good point, because there was things like The Futur just started, and I know you are also a fan of people like Chris Do.

Blesson Varghese: Yeah.

Ian Paget: And prior to that, so when I started, there was no YouTube. So I mean, that makes me feel very old, but I mean, we're talking only like 10, 15 years ago, that stuff just didn't exist. So you're in a very unique position, where you've been able to, basically, Google graphic design, and there'd be a lot of very high quality, very good resources and material out there that is completely free that just wasn't there 10 years ago, none of that was there, so you're in a very unique position.

And there is a topic and it might be a little bit delicate, and I'm not sure the best way of asking this, but you are probably the first Indian graphic designer that I've had on the show, and in the UK, anyway, there is a stigma attached to Indian graphic design. Generally, it's you would, you would assume it's cheaper, poor quality. It's all the Fiverr of stuff that you mentioned, and everything that you've spoken about, it makes sense. There's no education for graphic design or anything like that.

But you're, obviously, doing well. I really admire everything that you're doing, so you've done very well from this, and your work's absolutely fantastic. But I'm curious to ask, have you had any difficulties in any way, because of where you are located in the world, and because that stigma that is attached to Indian graphic design?

Blesson Varghese: First of all, I really feel honoured to be the first Indian on the show, by the way. It's a great honour for me. So answering your question, I'm very well aware, and I think, if we look at it from a perspective of Indians, as well as a perspective from the Western countries, I would say, if you learn the Indian culture, or if you learn the present condition of design or quality education of design in the country, you would know that these people, those who are building up this reputation of being cheap and poor work, they are not to be blamed 100%. Because the reason why I say that, I've been on both sides. I know the ground reality of what happens here in the country, when it comes to design and design education. At the same time, I've had experiences working with quality clients that really admire quality and pay for the quality price.

So the reason why I say that is, because, if you jump out in the market or in the real world, in the country like India, if you look at the advertisements, if you look at the shop signages, if you look at the overall design system used in the country, it's more focused on cheap stuff rather than quality stuff, if that makes sense.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. It does.

Blesson Varghese: Because when you step out, the state that I live in, it's still a developing state. The majority of people living in my state are tribals. They are more of like, the main profession they have, they are more of like farmers, more of them are farmers. And when we talk about education, only right now, they're started to get education, their generation. Before that, they were not too much focused on education.

The reason why I'm sharing all of this is to give a little bit of context on why this happens with Indian designers, usually. But things are changing right now, as you mentioned, with the introduction of internet, because we have overload of information from experienced designers, experienced agencies, teachers, and professors, who are telling you to do what to do, and how to build design business and things like that.

Did I have an issue working with clients when it comes to the stigma attached to Indian designers? To be very honest, I never had that issue.

Ian Paget: Good. Good.

Blesson Varghese: And I think the reason why I didn't had that issue is because when I started out, I found that what you portray yourself as is how your clients will see you as. And if you have your portfolio strong enough, that suits the needs of the clients, and that is perfect for the price that you're paying, if it justifies the price that you're charging for, then doesn't matter from where do you come from in the world, from what part of world you come from, all the clients want to know is whether or not you can help get their business rolling, whether or not you can solve their problem.

It doesn't matter whether you're from a country that's more underprivileged. It doesn't matter from a country that has a lot of these so-called stigmas of the past experience from other designers or clients. I never had this issue, because I found out that if you are really confident about your work, and if you think that what you're doing will really, really help the client, these things don't matter at all.

Ian Paget: I'm so glad that you said that. I didn't know how you was going to answer that question, but I really do feel that our generation, maybe not 10 years ago, I'm talking now, anyone, no matter where you are in the world, you can do this, you can do anything.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: You can become the next Paul Rand, you can become the next Sagmeister. I mean, I think, there are parts of the world, in every corner of the globe, where it's difficult, but we all have access to the internet. We all have access to information, we can all learn.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: And I think providing you put in the time and work to understand things, no matter your background, no matter your location, all of those opportunities are equally available. So thank you for answering that, and I'm hoping that will inspire some people that's listening.

Blesson Varghese: No problem. I just want to add on one thing as well, if you allow.

Ian Paget: Sure.

Blesson Varghese: So just the thing that you mentioned, doesn't matter where you are from. So the place that I come from, here you can find those graphic design shops where you can get your logo design for just under $20. And I'm not making this up. This is real. Companies and businesses that start, they just go to this graphic design shop. They say, "This is my shops name or business name, and I just want a logo." They get things done within like under $25. And when I, someone who come from such a place where a graphic design shop charges $25 for a logo, can work for a brand or I did a go for Brazil's top DJ he's.

His name is Alok DJ, he's also was under number five category. I did a rebrand logo for them. If someone from a state or a country, like where they charge $25 for a logo, if someone from that city or state can work for a client like Alok DJ, then you shouldn't really worry about where you come from. I don't know, how would you bring education or region or culture to these aspects? Because right now, with the introduction of internet, the possibilities are endless and there's no limit to where you can reach.

Ian Paget: Totally agree with that. And I'm curious, and you can skip this question if you want to, but pricing is a difficult thing globally. And you mentioned about the $25 shop, we have that in the UK, you go online, people can get a Lego for $60, 60 pounds or less. I think that's the case everywhere in the world. Am I right in understanding that you are charging relatively high prices?

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely, yes.

Ian Paget: Good.

Blesson Varghese: I think if you add more of like quite a bump up to the significant pricing that they are mentioning, I would say I'm charging somewhere around an experienced of like 8 or 10 years logo designer is charging for.

Ian Paget: Good. I'm glad to hear that. Again, it's another valid point, for those people that are out there that make comments based on where they're from, where they're based, all this sort of stuff, you are doing very well, and I know many people that are, that live in all corners of the globe, so it's good to hear.

I do want to go into some of the reputation building stuff because I think that's one of the things that you are doing well, one of the things that I was particularly drawn to. And as some examples for people that aren't already aware of you, you are active on social media. So I see you posting on Instagram frequently, you have a YouTube channel, you have your own podcast. I see you speaking at online conferences, that's how we actually are originally met.

You are doing a lot of things that I would describe as reputation building. So things that are establishing you as an authority around your chosen topic, you are usually speaking about logo design. And I know you've only been doing it a few years, but I feel you're doing it very well. So, of all of those things, which do you feel has been the most successful, and why?

Blesson Varghese: So when it comes to reputation building, the fun thing is that, when I started out and when I started doing these things, I had no idea that this would work as a reputation for me, to be very honest, to be very Frank. But it's when I started doing these things and understood the concepts and idea of how a personal brand... Because this is a real thing, I think a lot of us miss out on this, that, now, in the social media culture, in this internet world, you're not just a designer, but actually you're building your own personal brand. And if you have the foundations of your personal brand strong, that's, in itself, the best way to promote yourself.

I think, things are changing with the way promotion works, with the way advertising works, with the way, as you mentioned, reputation building works. So among all of these mediums, the best thing that has helped for me is to use social media in its best way possible, to build up a reputation that not just portrays you as an expert, but more than that, portrays you as a person who understands things behind what you're doing, and who has really figured out things in some other way, not just design, and when I say this designing, I mean software knowledge, but more than that, you understand the ins and outs of how things work for businesses, for design softwares, for understanding the problems and pain points of clients.

So when I talk on my podcasts, or when I share something on Twitter and things like that, I'm not just sharing how I design a logo, I'm not just sharing quick tips and tricks for logo designs, but I'm actually sharing my process. Because I think the process that you have is the most unique selling point that a client will get attracted to, so social media has worked really, really well for me.

And for anyone this helps I still don't have a proper dedicated website, as of now I'm rebuilding my website, but I've been getting clients, I've been having regular flow of clients throughout these years. And the reason behind that is because I've been very active on social media, in the way it should work for me. So I would say social media has been the best possible way of getting clients, leveraging what I do for client work.

Ian Paget: I love that answer, again. I think personal branding, we all speak about it and I think most designers are aware of it. Something I like to follow, are you're aware of Chris Ducker, he has a platform called Youpreneur?

Blesson Varghese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ian Paget: So he teaches about how you can build a personal brand around you. So you are like the main person as part of your brand, and you're building this whole company around you, you're getting named for this thing, it has a lot of really good, valuable information around that. And you only need to look at some big names that are out there like Gary Vaynerchuck.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: Everyone knows Gary V, he can keep doing different things, and people follow him for what he's doing. And, yeah, he's probably one of the biggest names within that niche, if you is to talk about personal branding as a niche.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: But, yeah, I've learned a lot from him and it sounds like you've stumbled across a lot of this similar information, and that's how you've gain that knowledge to build your personal brand.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: I would like to dive in a little bit more into the social media stuff. So we know that's worked well for you, and you did describe a little bit of what you was doing. I find it really interesting, I did actually notice that, that you don't have a website. A website for me is the main source of inquiries and leads and so on. So in terms of getting clients, can you talk through, specifically, what you are doing on social media, in order to attract those people to come to you?

Blesson Varghese: Sure. So let me just share this thing first that, when it comes to website and things, I am really a newbie to this thing, when it comes to SEOs, when it comes to generating leads through your websites and things like that. And I admit that I am very new to this and I'm still learning on how to process this and how to execute this. And that's the reason I'm not jumping on board and just putting out whatever I want to on my website. I'm trying to learn how to carry it forward, and how to do things that will really work, and not just mess it all up in a website. Because there are people-

Ian Paget: I don't think you can mess it up.

Blesson Varghese: I think there are people like you who are doing really, really well with their websites, and I'm taking notes, I'm learning from people, I'm learning from examples and case studies, where it's working for them and what's working for them. Anyway, that's just because I just wanted to put it there, I'm right now in the middle of redesigning my website, but the reason why I don't primarily have, right now at this point, a website is because I still haven't learned it out enough to get started, is what I'll see. I'm not-

Ian Paget: I don't think you need to worry, because it sounds like you are getting clients without it.

Blesson Varghese: Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Paget: And I think it's worth adding, that none of us really know what we're doing, we're all just trying stuff and seeing what happens. Obviously, we can learn from other people's experiences, which is why there are books and podcasts and audio books and stuff like that. But no one's really an expert, everything's always changing. The key thing to getting clients is networking and people knowing that you exist and you can help solve that problem.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: How they find you is completely irrelevant.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: Because they could eat you down the street, they could bump into you at a conference, they could do a Google search, which is why you would want a website, or they could stumble across you on social media.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: So don't stress about not having a website. I know you're still learning, I am too. I think everyone listening is probably in the same boat, even though some of them might pretend that they know everything, but nobody does. So do you want to share some of the stuff that's worked for you on social media?

Blesson Varghese: For sure. So when I started out, I just used to post my work itself and nothing else other than that, but then I started sharing behind the scenes. So I started sharing sketches, and how I landed on this sketches, what was my thought process behind that? So all this while I was getting clients, all this while, I don't mean to say that, when I was sharing just my work, I didn't get clients, I used to get clients. But when I started sharing my process, the quality of clients that I got, it got a level up, because I was sharing more of the in depth process. And then I started sharing the whole sort of like package kind of thing, where I used to post my sketches first, and then refined concepts, and then properly presented case studies, style posts on social media.

And when I say social media, it's primarily Instagram, but I also leveraged it into LinkedIn and Twitter and Dribbble as well as Behance. So how I turned it into was, I would design a Behance case study, and I would take snippets from those case studies, and I would obviously photograph my sketches and all of these things, and I just used to present them on Instagram or Twitter or LinkedIn and things like that.

But right now, if you look at my Instagram profile, it's a mix of lot of things. It's not just design, but it's also sharing my journey as a designer. And the reason behind doing that is because I, also, am planning to jump into other aspects of not just design, but also other aspects when it comes to building a personal brand. But what has worked for me to get client work is sharing your process. I think that has been the turning point for my design career is when I started sharing my process, and not just the finished work. It got a lot of attraction to ideal clients that I was trying to focus.

Ian Paget: Can you talk through specifically what you mean by sharing your process? Are you referring to just sharing a couple of images? Are you writing? Are you doing video?

Blesson Varghese: Oh yeah. So I think two years back, I just like snapped picture of my sketchbook, and I just posted it. But then I decided that I will share the idea behind sketches, like how did I come up with these sketches, and not just random sketches here and there, but the idea behind what I was thinking when I was sketching. I used to write them down and then put it up on a post. Then I did these called logo process videos. And I don't know, for some reason, people just really, really like looking at a logo, being built from scratch on a software. I don't know what magic there is in this thing, but I had clients come up to me, and they would refer to this video, "We found you through this video, this logo process video," probably sometimes it was also featured on some of the other local featuring pages.

And they would say, "We found you on this page, and we would like to get a logo designed or we have a project for you." So right now it's a mix of lot of things, but process videos works really well. It never gets old, at least, I would say that. It never gets old. I don't know why though, but it never gets old. It really works. And sharing the idea behind your execution, like why did you choose these colours? Why did you choose this typeface? Or why did you choose this type of logo design for the specific company? Breaking down your ideation process and presenting it in a way that has a total package of your execution ideation and all of these processes, it really works.

Ian Paget: Yeah. And I think there's so much room for ideas and approaches for how you can share that. I was just thinking, I think I've seen a couple of these videos that you're talking about where you are like constructing a logo. Am I right in understanding that you've, basically, done all the client work, you finished off the project, those videos, are you recording that after you've done it? Just recreating what you put together just for the purpose of that video? Or do you actually just record your screen throughout the whole duration of that logo creation process?

Blesson Varghese: Yeah. This is quite interesting, because I wanted to share this and I think I got the right time to. So when I started seeing designers posting logo process videos, I was like, "These are so polished, how do they do this? How is it that they don't make a mistake when they're doing [crosstalk 00:37:45]-"

Ian Paget: It's fake.

Blesson Varghese: So I just want to break it for everyone who thinks that this is like, well polished and they do it so perfectly, it's totally fake. They do it, redo it, and probably do it 10 times, and when it all works out well, they just post it on social media, right?

Ian Paget: Exactly. Exactly.

Blesson Varghese: So when I started out, I also copied that. I used to have a sort of like a timeline thing on how I'm going to record this video. I'm going to make a circle first, and then I'm going make a line first, and then I'm going to do this and then I'm to do this. So you can think of it like content creation. It was more focused on like creating a content style, based on this logo process video. But then I started doing time lapses of my actual exploration phase.

So I used to do quick sketches on my sketchbook, but then I jumped on Illustrator, and I used to explore based on those sketches. And I had these time lapses of those sketching process. And I know there are risks where you are exposing all of your concepts to the world, but I was ready to take those risks on exploring those concepts and presenting my ideas. So when answering your question, logo process videos, most of them were done after the project, just for presentation. But I also do time lapses, which are like real time, time lapses.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you've done it that way. I think if I was going to do anything like that, I would probably do it after I've done the logo, and make it as polished as possible. Because I don't know how you work, but I work in quite a messy way. Sometimes I can be sketching for an hour and I struggled to work things out, so I'll leave it for a while, and then I'll come back. And a lot of what I do is trash. You go through some of the pages of ideas and there are things that have been done before, or it just looked absolutely rubbish.

Blesson Varghese: Similar-

Ian Paget: But, yeah-

Blesson Varghese: Some of them absolutely looked absolutely similar to the logo that are existing.

Ian Paget: Yeah, but my point is, you kind of need to go through the garbage to find the one thing, because all you need is one solution, that's what the process is going through. And all that muddy mess, all that crud, all that just nonsense that you put together, that's just part of that process of finding that solution. And I know personally I would be reluctant to share too much of that in detail, but actually it would probably be incredibly valuable for the world, if I was to be as transparent as that. If I was to show how messy my-

Blesson Varghese: Art board.

Ian Paget: ... art boards and stuff are, being honest, it's just all over the place.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Ian Paget: I think that's normal, so it should be normal. And I guess to some degree it does need to be normalised, because I think a lot of these like overly polished Instagram images and stuff, it's intimidating. But I remember seeing one of Michael Beirut sketchbook pages, and I looked at that and thought, that's like mine. That's not that different from what I'm doing. He's just got the reputation and the experience. I think it all boils down to reputation. He's got the body of work to go with it. He's done all of these talks. He's wrote all these books. He's got all of that stuff that makes you feel that he's great. Well, I mean, he is great, but that body of work that reputation, it makes it easy to put that person on a pedestal.

Blesson Varghese: Yep.

Ian Paget: But when you go down to the raw ideas and the raw sketches, it's not that different. It's really similar to what I do. I know I've shared some of my sketchbook stuff and people have said the same thing.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: So I think that messiness is normal. It's just, we don't see it because people are scared to share it.

Blesson Varghese: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I think it is fear, because you don't want to charge a lot of money to find a solution, when actually your whole process is a little bit, I'm not sure what word, like amateur, messy, chaotic.

Blesson Varghese: Not polished and...

Ian Paget: Yeah. Not polished, not perfect, but, yeah, we all working that way, and it's good to hear that you are more in favour of going down this route. You know Connor Fowler as well, don't you?

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely. Yeah.

Ian Paget: I know he's gone through this process as well, where he started off doing a lot of really polished stuff, and then actually I remember him starting to more of his real work. And as-

Blesson Varghese: Yeah, he did,

Ian Paget: I feel there's a value to that. I've seen you do that as well, as you mentioned here. So I feel collectively, as a community, a lot of us are getting sick with the overly polished stuff and are keen to take that route a little bit more.

Blesson Varghese: That gets so much off pressure on people, those who are starting out as well. They're expecting their designs to be really, really polished. They're expecting things to look as good as people, those who have been in the industry for quite a while. But right now I look at few of the designers like on Instagram, there is James Martin, there's Allen Peters, and these people like share their raw stuff with you. "This is what it is, and that's how this mark was made. And this is how I came up with this idea and concept. Right now what you see is a polished one, but when we started out, this is how it works."

So it gives more of confidence and it relates well with people, those who are even starting out or those who are struggling with a lot of things like these. I think, in a way, if we can inspire people on that front, I think that's totally worth it.

Ian Paget: Yeah, absolutely. Now I want to move on to something that I noticed that you did, a piece of content. You created an ebook. I don't know when you released this, but, 10 mistakes ebook.

Blesson Varghese: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I will be transparent, I haven't read through it.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely. No, it's totally fine.

Ian Paget: But I was going to mention that I'd like to encourage people to download this, I assume that you are giving it away an exchange for an email address, is that correct?

Blesson Varghese: Yep, absolutely.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So I want to direct people to that and I'll put a link in the show notes, but do you want to share some of the mistakes that you included in that e-book?

Blesson Varghese: Sure. So thank you for mentioning that, by the way, because it's something that has been down the rabbit hole for quite a long time now. So the reason why I did this, one thing that I'm really passionate about, besides doing logo design and branding stuff, is helping designers, more of like people, those who are starting out or budding designers, really understand the ins and outs of freelancing or content creation and all of these things. And one of the strongest reason behind me wanting to do that is because I didn't had anyone to look up to when I started out.

And if I could be that person for anyone else, those who are starting out, I would think that all my hard work and all my time invested on making these contents, like my podcast, which is called The Bless Show, the ebook that's called 10 Mistakes I Made as a Freelancer, all of these things, if even one person would benefit from all of these resources, I think that would be totally worth it for me.

Because at the end of the day, it's not just about what I do and how much, well, I earn as a graphic designer, and how well I did as a content creator or anything like that, I think if I can inspire or if I can enlighten a generation, that's coming up, younger people, those who are starting out, it would be totally worth it for me. And that's the reason I wrote this ebook called 10 Mistakes I made as a Freelancer. And for a freelancer who has been doing freelancing for three years or four years, that might not make much of a difference and that's not really focused on to them. And this is really focused on people, those who have just started out freelancing, like probably five months or a year into it, or maybe you are planning to do it.

I have just stated down the things that I've learned through my practical experiences. I don't have a key to being a successful freelance designer, but it's just the mistakes that I made that I would like people to be aware of, so that if at all, they make this mistake, because we all do, but if at all, they make this mistake, they know how did I actually go through it. Because I share my mistakes I made as a freelancer, and I share how you can actually not make this mistake, what you can do to actually, maybe, overcome the mistake that you've made. So that's everything about 10 things, 10 Mistakes I Made as a Freelancer. If anyone wants probably, I believe, Ian will have a link of this. Otherwise-

Ian Paget: Yeah. I'll include the link in the show notes for that.

Blesson Varghese: Otherwise, just feel free to reach out to me on Instagram and I'll have one for you.

Ian Paget: Are there any of the mistakes in there that you are happy to share one or two of them.?

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely. I would say the strongest mistake, the biggest mistake that I made was, not having contracts, when working with clients. It doesn't matter if you're working for your brother, for your family, I don't know, for anyone, just have things written down, and just make things clear before you start a project. Because I have had nightmares working on projects where things were not stated beforehand, and the client just went totally overboard with a lot of those expectations that they had. And I just had to do it, because there was nothing written down. There was nothing that is decide beforehand, and it just made a lot of things messier for me. So I would say, do contracts. Doesn't matter what project you do, just do contracts.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think that's really important, and I think it's important for both sides, so that both you and the client is aware of what happens in what situation. I think it's important that that's clear, so that if, hypothetically, they made their mind up that they didn't want to work with you anymore, how do you deal with that? That should in the contract. If in the event that they decide to use the work without paying you, what will happen in that circumstance? Basically, every scenario should be in the contract, so that you are protected and your client is also protected.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: So I'm in full agreement. I know people that don't use contracts that have been successful. But, personally, I feel it's important just so that people are aware what happens when and what's going to happen in that particular situation.

Blesson Varghese: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Ian Paget: Do you want to share one more maybe just before we wrap things up?

Blesson Varghese: Sure. The second thing that I would like to share, like 10 mistakes, this is something that not many people might think of, but you have to think of freelancing as, treat it as a business, and not just as a hobby or a passion that you make money from. This is something that I also shared on my recent podcast is that, a lot of the times we are really passionate about our design, we're really, really passionate about pushing pixels, coming up with ideas and concepts, and all of these things, but in the real world, like real life world, it's not just about designing. It's about how you handle a business that is owned by you, managed by you, and everything is done by you.

So I would say. Don't skip the aspects of business, which is like managing finances, social media, and all of these things. Start learning slowly about these aspects when you start out, so that you don't don't get overwhelmed when things start working for you.

Ian Paget: And that kind of goes back to what I was mentioning earlier, that one of the real challenges, when you start working for yourself and when you don't have access to the education, which I didn't, you are going to make mistakes.

Blesson Varghese: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: Because the truth is, you don't know what you don't know. And when you don't know what you need to know, that's when it becomes an issue, and managing a business properly is one of those things. So getting advice from someone, asking people questions, learning from a lot of the resources that are online, like things like getting contracts and doing your accounts, and all that sort of stuff, all of those things are important. And I don't feel you need an education for that, obviously, it's beneficial because you are told what you need to know. But, yeah, I think it's important that you brought the up, and the contracts as well.

Because if you have no prior background of working for an agency, or if you don't have anyone that you can look up to and learn from, then it's difficult and it's tough. And I think the good thing is with your story is that you've proven that as someone that's grown up in an Indian culture and expected to be a doctor, you can still become a graphic designer, and you don't have to be pigeonholed into the being a Fiverr designer or a 99 designer, and doing graphic design and never getting paid.

I think you've proven that with a bit of dedication and putting in the work, and work to learn about things like personal branding, and I really feel that's one of the key reasons why you have been successful so far, is because you have been doing all of that. And I really feel that you're going to be a role model. I really do, because, now because of the internet, because of the volume of free resources and incredible information, you are basically the first generation that has access to this that can do this.

Blesson Varghese: Very true.

Ian Paget: So you should probably take the bull by the horns and accept that responsibility, and guide other designers that are India that are potentially going down the wrong route of the Fiverrs and the Ninety9 designers that most designers hate for obvious reason. I really feel that you can be an inspiring figure for someone that's been able to succeed, and create a model for a business that seems to be thriving.

Blesson Varghese: Thank you.

Ian Paget: So well done.

Blesson Varghese: Thank you very much, those kind words really, really mean a lot. And that's one of the reasons why I focus more on sharing my experiences and my stories, because I think when you have and when you see people, those who are from your same background, and when they do things that you might not think that would work out for them, when you see them happening in someone's life, you get more inspired. And that's the reason I want to share my story. And it's not just that I want to earn a lot or make money from doing design. But I think, as you mentioned, we have the responsibility to build up a generation of designers or build up a generation that understands the whole aspect of freelancing, understands the whole aspect of artistic nature in them, and really makes the best use of them.

And not just stuck it down, because of society's pressure. Not just stuck it down, because you think that things might not work out because for some like very small reasons, like you don't know English, or you don't think that you can communicate well, all of these things, you can just figure it out as you move on, right?

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Blesson Varghese: These are not the things that should stop you from doing things that you love. So I thank you very much. Those kind words really, really mean a lot. And I think we have a big responsibility, and, hopefully, we get to do something that inspires the younger generation.

Ian Paget: I think you already have. I really think this interview will inspire people. And, yeah, I think this has been a really great episode, and I'm glad that we connected originally, and I appreciate you coming on.

Blesson Varghese: No problem.

Ian Paget: And, obviously, I think in a few years time, we'll need to do this again. Because I know we're quite early in your journey, and it'd be good to see how things take shape and develop over the coming years. But, yeah, I really do appreciate you coming on, Bless.

Blesson Varghese: No problem.

Ian Paget: And I wish you all the best of luck with everything.

Blesson Varghese: Thank you very much for having me. As mentioned earlier, it's an honour for me to be on the show, and I hope that this episode is helpful for people there. Thank you very much.