Launching a Logo Design with NASA

Ian Paget: In the Logo Geek Community, I shared this post to hear people's success stories from 2020, because this has been a bit of a rubbish year for most people. But I was surprised to hear how many positive stories there have been. And I think one of the biggest ones is for me, and it's one that I'm particularly excited about because I am into space travel and I have been since I was a kid. So, it's awesome to hear that somebody else had the dream of creating a logo, that's gone into space, and actually fulfilled that dream. So, I wanted to get you on to talk about that story. And there's loads of other stuff that you do that we can chat about as well.

I want to focus on the Launch America Project first. So, I don't know where to start with this. I'm just going to throw out a question with, how did you get this project to start off?

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. There's a wonderful story about it and I hinted at it in that comment that I left within the Logo Geek Community, which again, I'm huge fan of. Thank you for opening that up to everybody. So, on the side beyond, outside of just doing graphic design and developing brand identity and doing a lot of logo work, I'm super into the motorcycle scene, specifically, the vintage and cafe racers, those types of motorcycles.

And for a couple of years now, I've written and act as a consultant, or contributed rather to a magazine called Iron and Air Magazine, that's printed here in the States, but it's certainly global. There's a lot of fans overseas that also subscribed to it. So, I've been contributing to that magazine for, my gosh, probably eight to 10 years writing up different stories on the world of motorcycles and the history of them, and certain individuals within that community. And so, I've had a really big connection with two of the guys that started that.

And earlier this year they had done some work for NASA, that I think they got because they built up that magazine so much. And they talk a lot about motorcycles, and of course, extends to automobiles, as well as just travel in general. So, no surprise that someone at NASA probably took notice of what they were doing, because the magazine is so beautiful, that they somehow got in with NASA. And they got a project through them for Launch America, which if I understand correctly, either came back or it started when the first SpaceX launch happened a few months ago, I believe it. I want to say it was in, my gosh, was it May, I think the first SpaceX launch happened.

So, long story short, they got the opportunity to do some on air graphics, and essentially establish the identity behind Launch America. But at the time, because they were moving so quickly, they didn't have an opportunity to get out the logo, which if you haven't seen it, it certainly needed some work. They did everything else, in terms of, again, the broadcast graphics, even down to the flight jackets that the commentators during the launch were wearing, everything. They did all that, but they couldn't get to the logo.

So, when it came time to have the second SpaceX launch that happened earlier in November, they had reached out to me and said, "Hey." Obviously, we know we had that connection. And they knew that I had done some brand identity work specifically with logos. And they asked if I wanted to be a part of it. And yeah, I mean, it's like, how do you say no to that? Right? So, it was a jaw-dropping moment. It's like, "Wait a second." Because I didn't know what Launch America was before that first launch. And they had to break it down for me. It's, "Okay. So, Launch America is that program that allows non-government agencies like Boeing SpaceX and the sorts to work with NASA and use their equipment in order to go to space." Launch America is like the middleman from what I understand.

So, just getting a lot information on what Launch America was, was the first couple of weeks of just getting to know what it was, of course, watching the launch and seeing what it was all about. And then yeah, November, we worked up to that November launch to finally, I think, rebrand, or just redo the logo. So, it matched what my two friends did, that Iron and Air, for that first launch.

So yeah, it was amazing, having to be able to speak with NASA, people who work there and running the logo work up the flag pole of sorts to get approved. A fairly smooth process. But I mean, amazing, nonetheless. It's like, how often do you get an opportunity like that to work with such a storied agency like NASA, to create something that hopefully, becomes part of just another chapter in the legacy of design work and logo work within that NASA book.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah. It's an incredible opportunity. And I know me personally, I would never see myself as an astronaut, but doing a logo design or a piece of graphic design work that actually gets put on something that does eventually go into space. That is amazing. And there's probably only a handful of graphic designers that have actually done that, actually had their work go in space. So, congratulations. I'm very envious.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. It's funny because I'm still trying to figure out if the logo actually got into, if it left the planet. I think on some aspect of it, they said, "Yeah, it's on probably some documents or paperwork inside the shuttle." So, I'm still trying to figure out if the logo left the planet, because that's just a fun thing, I guess, to put on a resume or something.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, definitely. And I'm really surprised because this is the first time that we properly spoken verbally. Anyway, I know we've had a few chats here and there. So, I wasn't familiar with your background or the type of companies you worked for. So, I actually had no idea how you might have potentially got that project. So, it's really surprising that working with a motorcycle magazine was what it took to take you down that path. So, were you actually just writing for that magazine?

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. So, when they first started, again, I want to say about 10 years ago, I quickly started following them because at that time there wasn't really anything in the motorcycle community that was just well designed and the storytelling, and the written word behind the motorcycles, and things like that were just good. There was just a lot of, I guess, generic type of motorcycle magazines that didn't really appeal to me. And Iron and Air popped up, and they just took a completely different approach. Again, the stories were amazing. They were well written, the photography, the design of the magazine itself. Shout out to Adam Fitzgerald, who was the creative director there. And we just started following each other. At the time I had started my own little side business called Godspeed that was certainly rooted in the motorcycle community.

So, Adam and I shared a love of motorcycle. And I simply just reached out to him and said, "Hey, I live in New York city." Where I was at the time, "There's a lot of motorcycles stuff happening here. The community is very... It's the massive community in New York City." That were doing a lot of things. And I asked him, I just told him or offered him rather, to cover anything that would be happening in and around New York City as it related to motorcycles. "And if I could interview someone, if I could write for you as a creative director, I'm decent behind the camera." So, I just offered up anything, all my services to him and said, "So, let me know if I could help." And he took me up on that.

Fast forward a few years, I wrote and documented probably, I want to say five to six different stories that found its way into the magazine. And then they also did a piece on Godspeed and a particular product that we make through Godspeed. So, the connection was there.

And Adam, knew I also was a graphic designer by trade. And he had followed a lot of the work that I did that wasn't motorcycle related, meaning brand identity and logo. It was that sort of coming together of, "Hey, we have the connection because we've worked with you in the motorcycle world. Then we also see that you do a lot of brand work. We have an opportunity for you. If you'd be interested, we could use your help on something." And that was the Launch America thing. "Would you be interested?" That's how it came to life.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, amazing. And the stuff that you did for that magazine was that paid work or was that just unpaid voluntary stuff that you did for fun.

Chris Logsdon: Absolutely voluntary.

Ian Paget: That's awesome.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah.

Ian Paget: It goes to show that when you're a graphic designer, you just need people to be aware that you're doing that. And if you're interested in a specific thing, get really stuck in and get involved in it, and get to know people because it's ultimately the people that know you, where these projects will come from. And that's the project of a lifetime. And I don't know if you thought it would ever come to this, but I would never have expected that writing for a motorcycle magazine would lead to an opportunity to work on something of this scale. It's awesome.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. And I don't think anyone would ever imagine that. Right? And that's why I'm such a big believer. And again, I know there's probably, you could dedicate an entire podcast to this thought, but I'm still a big believer in doing work for free. Now, exercising common sense while you do it, of course, so you're not being taken advantage of. But even now 15 years into my career, whether it's doing brand identity work or raising my hand and say, "Hell, I'll write an article for your magazine, and I'll do it for free." I just know that something good is going to come out of that, if the right people are involved. Right? So, I'm still a big believer in doing free work, when you feel like the long-term outcome of it could potentially yield something. Now, sometimes it doesn't, and that's fine.

I still got a ton of joy around literally seeing my story in a magazine that went global. So, there was some gratification that came out of that. And it's the same thing with logo work. I've done logo work for free knowing, "Cool. I'm either doing it because I'm offering my services to someone who probably needs it." And even in those moments like that logo that I did for free years ago ended up, that person who appreciated the time and effort that I put into that, literally told 10 of his friends and they sent me work that was paid. So, I'm a huge believer in putting yourself out there.

Again, you have to exercise common sense around it, because something like this could happen, and this is probably, the best case example, right? I didn't six years ago, I could have never imagined that writing an article for motor motorcycle magazine would lead to the point where I'm doing a logo for NASA. NASA, where I think, you got to take those things in consideration. Again, I caveat that with use common sense when doing work for free. But I'm still a huge fan of it. And I think this is a good example of what it could lead to if it's done properly.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah. I totally agree with that. And I've done a fair amount of things for free, just for fun, because I've enjoyed it. And like you said, that could become a whole topic on the same. So, let's pop that for now. We can get back to it a little bit later. So, let's go back to this Launch America project. So, you've got the project. We know how you got it. So, what did it look like to create that logo? What was the process that you took to create that new logo?

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. It usually, it's pretty much the same process I use for the most part, for any assignment that I'm given. Of course, this one had a little bit more pressure on top of it, considering who the client was. But first and foremost, a lot of communication with the NASA team. At one point we even had a conversation with Richard Danne, Dan, Dan, Danne? Who designed the Worm logo.

Ian Paget: That's awesome.

Chris Logsdon: So, just hearing some story from an iconic, because I know you like that. A lot of screen grab moments during that Zoom call. But yeah, just I think a lot of communication, again, getting just in depth with the brand and why it exists, right? So, I'm asking all the right questions and make sure that I have a breadth of information to reference as I'm going through my process of this logo mark.

And then there, of course they were the weekly check-in, so a lot of communication happening, not just around the logo itself, but my gosh, like they're putting a rocket in space, so there were a lot of conversations I was involved into, that were really nothing related to the logo, but more or less was hearing these things like, what they're working on, all these things that go into launching a launch. So again, just a lot of back and forth communication with clients.

And then when it came down to putting pencil to paper again, this is where it starts to take the path of what I usually do with any project, and that is just boiling down the key points that's going to then inform the work that I go do. And with this one in particular, knowing that, as you can imagine, there might be a lot of red tape within the NASA, with NASA clients, how do you now set yourself up to have a really good first round presentation with them?

So, I typically like to, I approach it from like offering something that's pretty close in, that I think is certainly good, but is an evolution of their current mark, which for those who aren't familiar with their current logo, it pretty much just said, Launch America quite big. Then there was this rather unusual shape behind the Launch America type. And at first I couldn't tell you what it was, it just these lions. I thought it was like a runway of sorts. I just didn't know what it was. And soon found out that it was the International Space Station. It was a crude drawing or illustration or the International Space Station behind the Launch America type. And the reason why that is there is because that's the final destination of the astronauts when they take off, they go to the International Space Station.

So, I think what was interesting too, in my initial reaction to them not understanding or knowing what that was, I think that was pretty telling in that it's time that the logo needed an update rather, because you couldn't tell what it was. So, the first approach was, "Okay, how can we just essentially maybe evolve this current mark into something that is, vis-a-vis what my three principles of graphic design or logo design." It's like, I pretty much drafting off of Tom Geismar in this, but it's making sure the logo is appropriate, making sure that it's distinct and memorable, and then make sure that it's simple. So, going through that process and checking all those boxes for this first approach, meaning just, "Let's just evolve it and make sure we're doing all the things that we should to do, proper logo design and see where that nets out. And we'll call that option one."

And then I went off and created a bunch of other options because they were open to it. They were like, "Hey, show us one that we'll certainly do what it needs to do, but then you have freedom now to go explore some other options that might potentially scare us." Which is great when a client allows you that freedom to do that. I do it regardless, but sometimes when a client, well, gives you that, it's a good moment.

So, I think ultimately, I brought back five different designs for them. Because as you can imagine, it's space, right? There's so much you can do in this category in terms of creating again. So, I think ultimately, yeah, I brought back five different approaches. Each of them had some connective tissue to the original market. It wasn't really like, "I just made this one up because it feels right." There was some pulling out of certain elements and just simplifying them to create a different option that we could consider. But it was a range of, "The first logo I'm going to show you is a really nice evolved version. And then I'm going to take you farther out to where the last one is radically different, but worth considering." And especially when we put them up against the other ones, let's have that critique of the marks just to see where the chips fall.

So, it was a really amazing presentation. And yeah, so as you can imagine, just exploring the different things that you would associate that would be appropriate for a space design was a super amazing fun space to play in and design against.

Ian Paget: I'd be really curious to see those five designs, but I know that you're probably not allowed to share them. But I've always enjoyed seeing the behind the scenes process stuff. So, I can imagine that there's some really good stuff in there with this project.

Chris Logsdon: There's some fun stuff in there. And then again, it all underline this idea of how do you imagine bringing a Launch America logo to life? There's a lot different avenues that you can explore. So, going through all that and carving out four or five different options, it was fun. And some of them were so, so bad-ass and fun to put together. But ultimately, they chose the one that was pretty much the closest to their current one, although it is radically different. Again, going through my process of just creating a logo that I think abides by the rules of good logo design, I'm super proud of it.

And internally, and this is just part of dealing with clients, internally it was the easiest one to sell through because you could make the argument that it's not too far out, it's still recognisable as a Launch America logo. You can put the old one and the new one up and say, "Oh, I could see how we got to this point." Than trying to sell through a radically different one, rather like option five, perhaps. That it's like, "Well, what am I looking at? What is this?" Compared to, again, the one they chose, which was, "Oh, okay. Yeah. I can feel how that feels similar to the old one. Let's run with that one." So it was, for the NASA, my day-to-day client, it was easier for him to sell that through because it was fairly, they shared some connected, or some shared DNA with the current one.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. I could see where it originally came from. And I remember that first one, I was struggling to work out what it was like, you did it look like some weird pyramid kind of thing. But I did obviously work out eventually what it was meant to be. But now with the version that you did, you can see where it's originated from and you can definitely see what it's meant to be.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. I also had the unique context of, or advantage rather of seeing it in action during the first launch when they used that mark during the first launch, and almost seeing where the logo either worked or for the most part where it felt flat. When it got really small, I mean, my gosh, it took so much right, as they call it, you couldn't really animate it. And the team did a good job doing that. But even then, it's just like, "What is that thing behind the type?" For the most part, if you're not in the NASA community or the space community, you have no idea what that is. Again, I thought it was a runway of sorts. And that was me trying to figure out like, "I don't know, maybe it's like something taking off a runway."

So, the mark that they ended up going with, the push there was to, let's get the International Space Station, which arguably is the coolest part about the logo, because otherwise it's just type, let's put that front and center, right? Let's get it off of the skewed angle look. Let's make it more prominent. But then that logo also had to be flexible. That was the other aspect of this mark. And that was part of the brief, was that the logo, it's not always going to say, it may not always say, "Launch America." It might say, "Launch Crew-1. Launch Boeing. Launch Starlink." And things like that. So, the logo had to be flexible.

So, the construct of that mark and why it worked out so beautifully is from here on out, if for those who have seen the new mark, the solar arrays, which are the 16 bars, eight on each side of the logo of the Launch America type that sits in the middle, those are essentially kind of bookends to where the type can always can change out. But the logo can always, for the most part stay consistent, because you're just changing the type in the middle while the solar arrays or solar panels always bookend the type. So, it now becomes a very, very flexible mark that they can use hopefully, for as long as the program lasts, without having to change the logo every single time there's a new launch.

So again, those iconic solar panels from the International Space Station worked out so beautifully as just bold graphics to encase the type. And there's some nice crossover too, for the United States, having the stars and stripe there. There's a beautiful overlap between those bars being symbolic of America, but then also referencing and being symbolic of the International Space Station.

Ian Paget: I wouldn't mind digging a little bit more into the presentation side of things. Because I know that you mentioned that you presented five different logos. How did you go about presenting each one of those? Are you able to talk through how many people you were presenting to, and what the slides or whatever it was that you work through were?

Chris Logsdon: Yep. Yeah. And I usually don't present five logos. I'm more in the camp of three to four-ish. So, five was one more than I usually do, but it's because it's NASA, I'm doing space stuff, something I had never done before. So, there were a lot of things that surfaced in my exploratory of creating these marks. I wanted to share out, and at least have the conversation.

So, in terms of the presentation itself, I think at any given time, there were, I think three to four NASA folks. Again, this is all done through Microsoft, whatever digital presentation, like Zoom, Microsoft Office, I think what it's called. So, all done from distance, considering the pandemic, obviously we're living through right now.

But as I usually do with any presentation, all of my logos always start in black and white. And the reason why we do that, and you probably know this as well as a lot of your listeners, it's the first time you can actually look at the mark and remove anything that doesn't necessarily need to be there just yet, in order to just discuss the concept of the mark. It's the logo in its simplest form. So that way, we're not necessarily talking about colour, even sometimes fonts, we're just concentrated on this particular graphic in black and white to discuss the meaning behind it and everything that went into it.

From there, I then build upon it. We introduce some colour. There were also some, as I usually do, once we go through the process of looking at the logo in black and white, some colour options. I even like to show them if the logo is constructed in a way, here's how type could work, horizontally or stacked, just to show them how flexible the mark can be. Because as we know, logos have to live in a variety of contexts these days, and you need a logo that can, sometimes that won't fit in a horizontal context. So, what is the vertical? How does it flex to sit in something more vertical? So, showing them variations of the mark, logo variance as I call it is always baked into that presentation as well.

And then I get into just in situation mock ups. Right? A lot of times, that's the unlock for most clients because they just can't necessarily picture what this logo looks like in their head. They need to see it for themselves. So, I believe I created four to five different scenarios in which I placed the logo, whether it was on a big banner outside of mocked up on the side of the VAB building, which is the vehicle assembly building, down there next to the launch, that's where the space shuttle sits vertically and they work on it, because they were going to put a banner on the side of the building. So, I mocked up a banner with a logo on it, on the building, as well as small objects. Right? What does it look like when it's on an iWatch as a little small, like the size of an app?

So, I like to show them even a breadth of just sizes to show that this logo in fact works when it's small, and also when it's big from an app to the size of a banner outside of a large building. And then I just repeat that process for all the concepts. So, it's pretty straightforward.

But giving them as much context as possible around each option is so important, because it allows them to have just the considerate in these different scenarios. And then at the very end, as I usually do, I put all the logos on one page, so we can see them together. And that's when we have that discussion around, "What are we liking? What are we not liking? Let's hear it." Gut reactions is always a good thing. So that was, I think it was probably like a 50 slide presentation that went through everything. But again, a fun one, nonetheless.

Ian Paget: And with so many people involved, because when I'm being honest, most of the time when I'm working on projects, an entire presentation, is normally it's one or two people. So, having four people on the call is quite a lot of people. And that's probably the same for you, I'm assuming. So, was it a case of them picking one during that meeting or, and you did answer this already, but what happened after you presented that? Was it a case of them agreeing on one and then taking it further to present to the people above them? Or how did that work?

Chris Logsdon: I never ask any of my clients to choose a mark during that first presentation.

Ian Paget: Okay.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. I think it's always good to... I ask for gut reactions like, "Is there anything here, are there many major red flags or anything that really jumped out in terms of the options we put in front of you?" But I always follow that up with, "But I don't want you to chew on right now." It's a rare occasion that actually happens. And I think that only happens when you have like the key decision maker in the room, and whether or not that person, that CEO or CMO is like, "That's the one we're going to run with it. We got to move." That's a rare occasion.

So, most of the time as it was in this, it's, "Let's talk about it. Again, let's hear any initial reactions behind what we're liking." And usually we'll go around the room, so to speak, and say, "Which one do you like?" "I like this one. I like this one. This one is cool. I didn't get this one, can you explain that a little bit further?" And it's pretty telling because a lot of times you get some good, honest feedback like, "I can't make out what that is. What is that?" And a lot of times it's like, "All right, maybe it's not as clear as I need it to be." And should that logo move on, that's usually part of the feedback it's like, "All right, let me tweak that, so it's a bit more clear, because three out of the four clients in the room didn't understand what I was trying to do there, but they still liked it. Is there room for improvement?"

So getting again, getting that initial reaction is very telling and very good. But then if the timeline permits, "Hey, let's marinate on this. Let's sleep on overnight. Shop it around, perhaps, get some feedback from those internally, if that is needed." And then hopefully get a pretty consolidated list of feedback before we get into round two. And that's where you try to call down from five logos in this instance to one or two.

But this one was actually quite interesting in that it moved fairly quickly and seamlessly. I was surprised. And it was because we showed them that one option, again, that I still love, the one that eventually got chosen. That was the one that just felt super close in, but it definitely fixed everything around the current logo that needed to be fixed. And it was an easier sell through. So, I think the feedback on round two was, "Thank you for all the logos you showed. We're going to move forward with this one. You can table the other four. And let's keep moving on."

Ian Paget: So, after that meeting, I assume that you would have made any tweaks, updates and so on. And then was there then a followup presentation with just that one logo?

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. Yep. So, interesting enough, after round one, when we knew we were going to go with the one that they eventually chose, my main client wanted me to bring in a few other ones just to show the breadth of what we did. But he stated right at the top of that second presentation, where we brought in more NASA folks, who had to be in on it to just know what we were doing. He let them know, "Hey, we chose one, but this is just good to see the work that we've done. And to talk about why we're moving forward with this one." So, it was an interesting opportunity for me to just explain my process as it relates to logo design.

But yeah, so between that first round and that second round, I had some just minor tweaks that I wanted to make myself based off of what I was hearing after round one. And then it was, again, I think, my gosh, it was probably and oddly enough for an agency that big, NASA, you would think it would take forever, but it moved fairly quickly, after we had identified the mark that we wanted to move forward with.

Ian Paget: That's awesome. I'm glad it went so well for you. And yeah, I can say it was definitely a highlight of the year for you. So, just before we move on to the next section of questions I do have for you, how does it feel now that you've done that project?

Chris Logsdon: It's amazing. And I just to hint at the, for those who didn't see my comment in your post, the best part about all this was, I grew up in Southern California. I was an Air Force brat, so we moved all over the world. Having spent time in California, overseas in Japan, and now Upstate New York. I moved every four years as a kid.

And when we were stationed in Southern California at an Air Force base called Edwards. Edwards is located right outside, at the time there was a NASA compound there that my dad worked security at. He's always been in law enforcement. And he somehow got a position as a security guard on the NASA campus there. So, I grew up going in and out of that campus and seeing a lot of cool things that I don't think a lot of kids my age at the time, I think it was like eight or nine, would have gotten an opportunity to see and experience. And of course, we have a lot of photos from that time.

So, just having that NASA, some part of NASA baked into me as a kid. Fast forward, oh my God, I'm 39 now, almost 30 years later, to be back in that world and to be working on such an iconic brand and adding to, again adding some logo work to a storied agency that has tremendous amount of design work as a part of it, was unreal. And it really hit me. You would think that during the launch and seeing it all over television, and how it was animating, and the different places it was showing up, would have been the best part, which it was, it was a great part, but my parents were watching it too. And they FaceTimed me during it. And my parents were in tears, because I think they were feeling that, I'm sure it was a mix of nostalgia for them, as well as, just being proud of their son.

So, just having the opportunity to give my parents that opportunity to be a part of that and to feel those emotions was arguably the best part of this entire project, because I know it meant a lot to them. And so, it's one of those things where you hope something else can come along later that also brings that level of excitement and enthusiasm. I don't know if it ever will. So, but I'm just so happy and humble to, again, have had the opportunity to be a part of all this and to develop something that hopefully, will live on for some time.

Ian Paget: Yeah. And I think with something like that happening during 2020, which for most people has been a pretty rubbish year. That's a huge deal for any years. So, congratulations for that. And your backstory, so you mentioned that your... Was it your dad? He worked in the military, so you would move from location to location. I actually thought that background was maybe what got you into this project. So, it's amazing that it all went full circle and you eventually worked on a project for NASA in the end. So, congratulations.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. I appreciate that. Both my parents were actually in the military. They met in the Air Force when they were stationed at, I hope I'm saying this right, Upper Hayford in the UK, back in the early eighties, I believe. So yeah, and then we moved around as the life of an Air Force brat goes, every four years you're pretty much up and move somewhere else.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think he was the perfect person to work on it anyway. So, I want to move on to some of your background now, since we have time. So, I found out that you work as creative director for The Sasha Group. And for anyone that's not familiar with that, it was originally part of VaynerMedia, which is owned by Gary V. And if you're into marketing, advertising or anything like that, Gary V is a huge name. So, it's a pretty big deal to work for that company. So, do you want to tell us more about that role and how you got into that originally?

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. And I'll try to quickly move through it because there's some parts to it. So, I graduated from college in, my gosh, 2003 with a BFA in graphic design, a bachelor of fine arts in graphic design from the College of Saint Rose in Upstate New York. Getting into the world of, my first job threw me into the world of advertising, where I was certainly doing some design work, but I slowly navigated my career to get more into the world of just advertising work, meaning big campaign ideas, less graphic design. Certainly, art direction and graphic design was a part of it, but it was more or less coming up and ideating big ideas for big brands.

And I had worked for two agencies prior to coming over to VaynerMedia. My second agency about my, I think, 10 years into my career, I had done a lot of work for traditional work, like developing TV scripts and writing radio scripts, and doing out of home advertising for some pretty big clients, Pepsis, Wendy's, MasterCards of the world. I got to the point in my career where I just felt like I just wasn't in love with it anymore. And listen, I was being paid very well. I liked the work. It was a very super comfortable position, but I was just 1% or 2% unhappy with what I was doing with my life.

And right around that time, I had been following Gary, in all the things that he was doing. And I had to chance opportunity to meet him. Gary Vaynerchuk, as he usually does, he was trying to sell one of his books, Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. And he was doing this crazy, "If you buy X amount of books, I will give you something in return." So, he even had a barter option, like making me an offer. So, I told him I'd buy 10 of his books and hand them out to 10 deserving friends of mine, if I could get three minutes of his time for a meeting. And he accepted it.

And I had the meeting. It was for a wine idea that I was actually working on, a completely unrelated in terms of asking him for a job. I actually needed his wine, Rolodex for Godspeed project that was having to do with wine. And of course, Ian, it sounds like you know him. He's really in-depth in the wine world. And so, he gave me a ton of connects. It was awesome. But the best thing that came out of that meeting was I had an email connection with him now.

So, six months later after, again, just not really liking where I was at my agency, I shot him an email and say, "Listen, I'm an idea guy. I have a lot of experience on some pretty big brands that VaynerMedia now has. I truly don't know what you do there at VaynerMedia. But I'd love to be a part of it because I'm looking for a change." And we all knew that it was, like the world of advertising was going in the direction, certainly more digital, now at that time. This is going back to 2014, '15. So he said, "Sure, come on over." And the first year I worked, ironically, on Pepsi, which I had worked on in the past.

So, my first year at VaynerMedia in New York City, I worked on one of their big brands there. And it was awesome. I mean, it's hard to really explain what it's like to work inside the halls of VaynerMedia. And as you can imagine, it's pretty crazy, but fun. Especially we have a leader like Gary, who's very rare to work for and have the opportunity to work alongside with.

And about a year after working in the New York office, we had an opportunity to move down to Chattanooga, Tennessee to help open up an office in the Southeast, again, in the State of Tennessee. So, I was part of the first, I think there's 20 of us that moved down there to open up an office in Chattanooga. And the reason why I mentioned that is, about two and a half years into opening that office, that's when Gary decided to rebrand us as the Sasha Group. Particularly at that time, he wanted to be able to service small to medium sized businesses, not the big, Budweisers and Toyotas of the world that could afford Vayner, but a lot of those smaller businesses that didn't necessarily have the marketing budget to the tune of whatever, 250,000 or a million dollars, or actually it's higher than that, to spend with an agency light like VaynerMedia.

So, Gary wanted to open up a smaller setup, hence the Sasha Group. So, for the next couple of years, we were doing a lot of different stuff for smaller size businesses, some mom and pop shops, some startups and tech startups. And it was interesting time and interesting clients to work with.

And all along, I had been doing a lot of design work on the side. Again, it was getting back into creating logos pretty much just for fun. And there were some opportunities within the Vayner world where Gary was starting some new company or something. And again, probably this thing that I continually do throughout the course of my career is just raise my hand and ask for the opportunity. And around the time that he had talked about starting VaynerX as a holding company, because he had so many other companies that he needed a holding company. He needed those companies to live underneath something, that was VaynerX. I asked him to, if I could just take a crack at designing the VaynerX logo. And he said, sure. So that was the first logo that I had done for Gary. And I've now done since I think, my gosh, I've done eight or nine, or 10.

So, I started quietly doing it for free for Gary within the Vayner world. I was also doing some stuff on the side. I had a little side thing called Tender2, #Tender2 on Instagram. That was just me documenting my process of working on things that I liked doing, loved doing like logos, from 10 o'clock at night, till two o'clock in the morning, because that was the only time I had to be able to work on just fun, personal projects.

And then what happened next was this beautiful blending of all aspects of my life, in that a few of our Sasha clients came to us asking if we could handle doing brand identity work like, "Could you guys do logos? Could we do other things?" And that's when I asked Gary about transitioning from a traditional creative director, which I was at a time for the Sasha Group to focus more on the branding asks that we were getting from, more and more from these clients. So, that transition happened about a year ago, where I left Chattanooga, Tennessee to move back up to New York to focus primarily, on our brand identity offering that we now offer as a service underneath the Sasha Group.

Ian Paget: Do you know what I really love about you, Chris, is that you don't sit there and wait for someone to tell you to do something, or you don't sit there and wait for some opportunity to come up. You literally ask for it and go out there and get it. And that's why you've been able to work for Gary V. And that's why you've been able to get this Launch America project as well. I think that's something that a lot of people can learn from, because people sit there and they think, "Oh, I don't get any opportunities or this never happened."

But something that I've learned with my podcast and other stuff that I've been doing with Logo Geek, you just need to go out there and get what you want, and ask, and create the opportunities for yourself. And you're a prime example of somebody that does that. And that's why you're where you are today.

Chris Logsdon: And again, and you're such a good case study of that as well too, right? It's like though, how you've been able to grow the Logo Geek brand, is a good example in that. You just, you pick up the phone, you send a DM, you write an email saying, "Hey, would you want to be a part of this? Or can I do this for you?" And for anyone listening, you'd be surprised at how often the response might be a yes. Right?

Ian Paget: Oh, yeah.

Chris Logsdon: So, what do you have to lose? It's like, Gary said, "No, don't do my logo." It's like, "Okay, cool. I'll go do everything else I'm supposed to do." But in the event and the off chance that that person, that company says, "Sure." There you go. Because again, you'd be surprised at how many people literally just don't show up and ask. It's the easiest way to get in with anyone, it's just simply asking.

Ian Paget: Yeah, exactly. And I think, it could go one or two ways, either they say yes or they say no. You have literally nothing to lose. And I've been really surprised with this podcast. As an example, when I emailed Tom Geismar, to invite him to be on my podcast, and bearing in mind at that time, I had only done like one season. I had no expectation that he would ever get back to me. But literally 10 minutes after sending that email, I had an email back from his assistant, I think it was, that literally said, "When would you like to do it? And how long do you need?" And that literally blew my mind.

And in your case, being observant and seeing when someone like Gary V, who to get three minutes from him, that is a big deal. And I think to recall that in exchange for 10 books, it was a bargain, because that means that you got that direct connection with him. He got to know you. So, when you did reach out to him for a possible opportunity, he knew who you was and was happy to communicate with you. And I can imagine that Gary V, has thousands and thousands, and thousands of people demanding his time. So yeah, fair play.

Chris Logsdon: That meeting got moved about 20 times, so yes. I mean, one, your interview with Tom Geismar, I've listened to it multiple times, amazing interview. And yeah, to that point, do you have any people probably are kicking themselves because they actually had the email to Tom Geismar more in their inbox, and they just never hit send because they were too afraid to hit send. Right? And now they're kicking themselves because you did it first and he accepted you, right? That probably is true to a certain degree.

And it's amazing how, whether it's just some insecurity, just some fear of rejection that holds so many people back. But I think you and I are both good examples of, if you simply lean in, put yourself out there, raise your hand and just ask, more often than not, I guarantee you more often than not, that situation can come about, if you just put yourself out there.

Ian Paget: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Now we have about five minutes until you need to make moves. So, I'm going to throw one last question at you. So, I was scrolling your Instagram feed for in preparation of this interview, and I noticed something. You have a common love of logo design books. You've got loads there. So, I want to ask you, what's your favorite logo design books and why?

Chris Logsdon: Man, loaded question, Ian. And I have to blame Christophe, from Logo Books.

Ian Paget: I know Christophe, good friend as well.

Chris Logsdon: I mean, such a genuine human being. He has cost me a lot of money because of all the books that he posts, that I then go try to buy myself. But yeah, and I'm sitting here in front of a huge wall of logo books that I'm sure a lot of us have, but then some rare ones that when I get stuck on something, I really go after it. When it comes to like trying to find rare and unique things. And probably the one that I'm most proud of and Christophe helped me, is the... I'm going to pull it out here. One second. It was done by Deco Press. There are 10 of these books. You have saw the photo my Instagram.

Ian Paget: Oh, I know the books you mean. They're really expensive. And they're really hard to get hold of. And you know what? I was actually scrolling your feed and I saw her a couple of books, and I'm like, "I'd really like that one." But trying to find it, it doesn't exist. And you know what? That really makes me want it.

Chris Logsdon: And that's what drove me mad trying to find them. So, I actually, I came across one of them on eBay or Craigslist. And I was like, "What is this book? It looks really cool." It was only one. I'm sorry. It was actually three of them. Someone in Tennessee, of all places, in Tennessee had three of them that I think came from a library. And I paid probably a hundred bucks for the three of them. And I would have paid a thousand just for those three, because the books themselves are gorgeous. One, the shape of them and the size is so unique. It's almost like the size of a brick in your hand. It's more vertical than it is horizontal. And it's pretty thick. I think there are about... My gosh, I'm looking here real quickly. There's no page numbers. But there's about a thousand logos in each book. And there's 10 books in this set. Each book covers a different country. So again, if you hear my voice fading it's because I'm looking over my shoulder.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's fine. I think we get that.

Chris Logsdon: It's Great Britain, Ireland, America, Italy, France, like all the companies. And the each book, it covers a lot of the designs that came out of those countries. I want to say this came out in the mid seventies. And then to top it off, the last three books, numbers eight, nine and 10 are labeled, they're at the annual. So, I think they chose the best from 1977 to '78, and '79/80 of those first seven books and put them in the last three books as a sort of best of.

And I had three of them that were decent condition that I found. But then of course, when I found out there were 10 of them, I had to go find the rest. So, I definitely, I reached out to Christophe, and he found someone in Italy who had the complete set almost in prime condition. I paid a lot of money for them. I ended up selling the three, I originally had to help put towards the complete set. But this set is probably my favourites of my collection. Christophe, has also gotten me some really cool books from Paul Ibou as well, which I'm very grateful for.

But for those of you who want to get into something really interesting and exciting, that is certainly much more cost efficient... My dogs are going to start barking.

Ian Paget: It's fine. And it's funny, when we're near the end of the episode, so it's fine to have a little bit of background dog. It gives some background to your life as well. People know that you have dogs, so it's all good.

Chris Logsdon: LogoArchive Magazine, I'm sure you're very aware of it. That to me is some of the coolest stuff happening right now in terms of getting printed logos. So, with the dogs going on behind me, I will end it at the LogoArchive Magazine is quite a fascinating thing to get every other time they print them.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I love what Richard Baird is doing. He's really taking that place. He's now, he's really expanding the Instagram feed and the smaller books. And so that people are aware of what these are, they are basically A5 magazines with about five or six sheets of paper. So, they're really thin. But I do agree with you, Richard puts a lot of time and puts a lot of attention to detail into the quality of the material. And I just think he's doing an absolutely fantastic job with those. So, I do agree.

I'm also going to give a shout out to Logo Modernism, which I think is a good reference book for logos, for anyone that doesn't want to go out and spend a few hundred pounds on those smaller books. But I'm kicking myself, because I remember a few years ago I was interested in that book collection. And I swear I saw a complete set for about 200 or 300 pounds. And it's probably worth a lot more than that.

Chris Logsdon: Yeah. And I failed to mention the title of it. So, it's called The Top Symbols and Trademarks of the World, that's the set. It was printed by Deco Press in Italy. But yeah, you missed out on profit, a great time to buy those things.

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Chris Logsdon: And to your point, Logo Modernism, just so you know, that was actually, I think the first logo book that I got, that started this whole charade of me collecting logo books. And while it doesn't cost, I think you said over a hundred pounds, it certainly weighs a hundred pounds. It's literally the size of a coffee table book. So, it doubles nicely as a coffee table, rather. It's one of the biggest books in the collection. I'm sure you have it on over there too, but it's massive.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I do. Yeah, it's huge. It's probably the biggest book that I've got. And I love the Trademark and Symbol books by Yasaburo Kuwayama.

Chris Logsdon: I needed that one. And I will quickly just shout out two other books, and we'll call it quits on my end at least. There's a book called Logo World, that I think is certainly, I want you to look into, because it's something interesting, and it's something that Christophe and I, have been talking about. This Logo World book I believe it was written by Paul Ibou, highlighted the Logo World Festival, I think in 1994. Are you familiar this?

Ian Paget: I've seen it on Christophe's feed. And he has a whole lot of books, I'm quite jealous about. He's actually friends with Paul as well, and created a book with Paul as well. So, he's a good person to know if you're fascinated by Paul Ibou.

Chris Logsdon: For those of you who are interested, go get this book, because in 1994, Paul Ibou, put together along with some other well-known designers a conference in Belgium, I believe, where they highlighted, it was a show. It was a conference of just logos from the top designers of the world at the time. And it's an incredible documentary or book that documents that festival, which is, I never even knew it happened, which is great. So, definitely check that book out.

And then another rare one that I've recently just fallen in love with, that I think Ian, you would love it, it's called Seven Designers Look at Trademark Design. It's a wonderful book that has seven designers who discuss trademark design. Some of the designers listed here are Herbert Bayer, Paul Rand, just to name a few. And it's an incredible, it's a hard to come by book. But it's really interesting especially to read written word by, of course, Paul Rand, and his take and his approach on logos, and not just logo design, but trademark design, in terms of how you leverage the different assets of a brand to create a broader design system beyond just a logo itself. So, those are two books that I would highly recommend for those who are interested in trying to build their collection.

Ian Paget: Fantastic. And I think what I'm going to do now is go on eBay, and go and look for those books. But anyway, Chris, we should wrap this up. It's been really great to chat with you. I'm glad that we did this. It's been fascinating learning about the Launch America project and everything else that you've been doing as well. So, thanks so much for making the time to do this. And hopefully, everyone listening has enjoyed as much as I have.

Chris Logsdon: Thank you for your time, Ian. I'm humbled and grateful for the opportunity. So, thank you so, so much.