An interview with Michael Johnson - LIVE at Birmingham Design Festival

Hey Logo Geeks, it's Ian Paget here with another podcast episode, a companion to my book Make a Living Designing Logos, which you can find on Amazon.

This episode is a special one. Earlier this year, I was invited to do a live version of this podcast at the Birmingham Design Festival. Historically, public speaking would have completely freaked me out, and I would have likely said no a few years back. However, I've been working hard to overcome this fear. This podcast has been key to that, and over the years, I've also been attending speaking clubs to practice presenting, as well as participating in Zoom hangouts with other designers and Zoom calls with clients.

Interestingly, all this work, over a 10-year period, didn't seem to make it easier each time I did something. It only felt easier when I looked back and compared my progress. Each time I faced my fear, it chipped away at it bit by bit. Over time, the effort has really been worth it.

So this year, when I was asked to speak on stage at a design event, I decided it was time to say yes. Surprisingly, I didn't feel too anxious leading up to it. Instead, I felt excited. When the time came, I felt calm and relaxed, which was new for me. Normally, I'm very nervous. I don't know if this was just a one-off or the result of years of effort finally paying off. I will be doing more of this in the future to find out if I've truly overcome my fear of public speaking.

When I was invited to do a live version of this podcast at the Birmingham Design Festival, I immediately thought about who would be the best guest. The choice was obvious: Michael Johnson, founder of the design studio Johnson Banks and author of Branding in Five and a Half Steps. If you haven't read his book, I highly recommend it as a must-read.

I reached out to him on LinkedIn, and he agreed quickly. We organised the details over a few weeks. How cool is it to have the opportunity to interview an iconic British designer live in front of an audience? I still can't believe I did it, and that's what this podcast is today, a recording of that session.

Over the next 45 minutes, if you weren't able to attend in person at Birmingham, you can now be a fly on the wall and listen in. Note that in some places, the microphone batteries ran out, so the audio quality isn't the best in places. I patched together different pieces of audio to make it as good as possible.

So, let's start the recording. Here it is the interview with Michael Johnson, and the very first live episode of the Logo Geek Podcast.

Okay, so I think it's a good time to start. First of all, I want to thank everyone for turning up. This is the first time I've ever done a live version of the podcast, and I had no idea what to expect. I wasn't sure if it would just be a couple of people, but we have half the seats full, so thank you!

As I mentioned, this is the very first live version of the Logo Geek podcast. It's a big deal for me because I started the podcast to help with social anxiety. The fact that it has brought me to do something like this, and that I feel comfortable doing it, is a huge milestone for me. Thank you for being part of this journey.

I'm joined today by Michael Johnson. For those who aren't aware, Michael is the founder of the design agency Johnson Banks and the author of Branding in Five and a Half Steps.

Today's conversation will focus on Michael's journey in building an agency and supporting those who want to follow a similar path. So, how many people in the audience have a dream of building a design agency? (Pause for audience response) We've got quite a few hands!

To help you all follow this journey, I've structured this session into three sections:

1. Life before founding Johnson Banks
2. Founding Johnson Banks
3. Growing the Studio

We only have 45 minutes, which isn't a long time, so we'll try to cover as much as we can. Let's see how it goes.

So, Michael, can you give us a brief overview of your life prior to founding the agency? Just a brief summary to give us some context leading up to the founding of Johnson Banks.

Michael Johnson

[00:08:31] Okay, well first of all, hello everyone, thank you for coming.  Some of you may have been at my previous talk, and I do apologise.  After a two-hour talk, I'll probably be a bit a weird mixture of caffeine and adrenaline. So the question was: Oh, life before my company.

Ian Paget

[00:08:46] Yeah, just an overview what your life looked like because there's people in the audience that would like to do similar to what you've done and I think it's good to give a bit of context as to where you were in life prior to actually starting.

Michael Johnson

[00:08:58] Okay, so my journey, I guess my journey, I hate that phrase, don't you? My journey, my journey is a quite an unusual one. I didn't do foundation, I didn't really go to a proper design college. I was working at 21 and by the time I was 28, I'd had eight jobs in eight years. And I had dreamt about starting a company but I think I was kind of holding that for when I was about 30 or so. And by the time I was 28, I was essentially unemployable. He laughs, but it's actually true because my my CV looked like a kind of car crash if I'm honest. So I suppose maybe you could say that I was kind of proof that you can do it even if your CV looks like a car crash, not perhaps the question the answer you were expecting.

Ian Paget

[ 00:09:44] Well, I mean, it gives people an idea because I think one of the reasons why people end up starting on their own is because they don't feel they fit into the typical model and you know a lot of friends that are freelance.  In that position, where they lost a job and ended up doing it themselves, so I think it's good to get some context prior to jumping in.  So, I think leading on to the next question: When did you first start contemplating the idea of actually starting your agency?

Michael Johnson

[00:10:13] Well, I think a lot of people, including those in the room, have thought about it or are doing it or are thinking about it. Most graphic designers consider starting their own company at some point, but there are many barriers to actually taking the leap. It’s a bit of a jump into the unknown.

I did consider it; I thought maybe it was something I could do. The circumstances pushed me towards it because I had an unusually accelerated work experience in my 20s—working not only in the UK but also in Sydney, Melbourne, and Japan. I had this compressed career trajectory. After six or seven years of that, it became logical to try starting my own company.

During the early years of John Spanx, I kept telling myself: "Well, if it doesn’t work out, I can always get a job." That was my fallback plan—“If this goes tits up (pardon my French), I can find a job here or there.” The problem now is that I’m not sure I could get a job, given that I’m older and very grey. But that’s my problem, not yours. Having that fallback in your head is useful, and I did rely on it for 10 or 15 years, if I’m honest.

Ian Paget

[ 00:11:38 ] Yeah I've done exactly the same thing so I went full-time how long ago was it maybe two years ago and it's it's useful having that in your head that you can go back so if things don't work out it's it's absolutely useful.

Michael Johnson

[ 00:11:51 ] Yeah it's like you know I used to play bowls with my grandpa it's like having a good back wood and you want to have the place.

Ian Paget

[ 00:11:57 ] You want to play bowls that's an obvious no.

Michael Johnson

[ 00:11:59 ] That's an obvious no I'm in the semi-north I thought people would get that reference but it's like having good it's like a safety net you know it doesn't work out.

Ian Paget

[ 00:12:06 ] Yes, I’ve read the book The 4-Hour Work Week and that that book runs through the idea of thinking of the absolute worst-case scenario.  And in most people's cases, say hypothetically no money was coming in; you can just sleep on a friend’s sofa or something, you know it’s a worst-case scenario is useful to imagine.  Okay, so you've got you've got this idea in your head of starting an agency; do you want to talk through how you actually went from this idea to turning it into a real thing?

Michael Johnson

[00:12:41] Yeah, in my case, I was thinking about it; the project at the company I was working for was getting increasingly untenable. They kept threatening to fire me and all the usual stuff that happens when you're gobby and 27 or whatever I was at the time. In the end, I actually did go freelance and worked for myself.

I had said to one of my clients, in a slightly drunken moment at the end of a project, something about starting a company together. He was a client, Banks was a client, and I’d utterly forgotten this comment—it was after a night out after we finished a project. He had not forgotten it, though.

So, as I was X months into my freelance/working-for-myself phase, he came to me with a proposal: he would leave the company where he was working, bring the design projects with him, and we would start a new venture together. That was quite an interesting proposal, so we did that. Hence, the Johnson and Banks of my company name came together.

It didn’t necessarily last that long, if I’m brutally honest. We had, shall we say, "musical differences"—that’s what they say when bands split up, isn’t it? The pressures of starting a young design company were enormous. This was just pre-computer or as computers were just coming in, and I think he may have found it slightly overwhelming. I was in "work 13 hours a day" mode, and he had a small family, so it was tricky. After less than three years, it stopped being a partnership, but I kept the name. I liked the name; I thought it made us sound bigger than we actually were. It still does that, you could argue.

So that’s a very potted history of that period. Make friends with the client—you never know, the person you’re working with, who you might think is a real dick, could actually be your salvation for your next career opportunity. I didn’t think Tom was a dick, and we worked well for two and a half years. It just happened, you know.

Ian Paget

[ 00:14:48 ] Yeah, I mean really thinking about it, I mean I'm I work as an independent graphic designer so I work for myself, and I assume a lot of the time it's just a matter of time.  Yeah, a lot of people in the audience are in that same position now, and I think really what makes a difference between working for yourself and starting a team is one extra person so I know a few people that have worked with you know friends, you know, that's a good way to get started to to work with somebody else that has a vision and kicking and and and inevitably most companies just add one or two people and bit by bit they grow and organic growth is usually the best kind of growth and.

Michael Johnson

[ 00:15:25 ] Yeah.  Exactly what happened to us, we added the person then another person, I mean, and I'm sure this is one of your questions, but what you do is you get to a point where you've got to decide which may be of equal interest to this audience and the online audience, you've got to decide what kind of company you want how big you want it to be how you want it to be structured and that's an interesting uh challenge actually for nearly every designer who's thinking about it and it's useful to think a little bit about where it might go yeah I think it's worth asking so you've obviously started this agency you and another person two people growing from that is probably a big deal because working with somebody

Ian Paget

[ 00:16:08 ] Else is a lot easier than actually having a team, so in terms of your first proper hire, what was that position?  Why did you choose that position?

Michael Johnson

[ 00:16:19 ] Well, in terms of structure, I was the designer and Banks Tom Banks was the the suit if you like or the the account director.  And we were we're overloaded quite quickly, so I needed a designer.  So David David Jones was my first ever employee, very good graduate from Preston, um which was a great course at the time.  Uh, and he was my first employee.  Then we added a couple of more this is the 90s, okay back in the dim dim and distant days.  And so we added two, three I think we had, I think we were up to like  Two or three, and then we added a couple more, and then we added a couple more, like six or seven people by the end of the 90s, that's impressive I think.

Ian Paget

[ 00:16:54 ] What makes a big difference really is that when you started, you worked with somebody else with complementary skills because a lot of a lot of designer friends that you know want to start something collectively, they end up working with another designer, so it is interesting that you worked with a business person primarily.

Michael Johnson

[00:17:11] There are two basic models for structuring a design business. One model consists of designers who like each other and share a passion for design. They might talk about how they always discussed typefaces and finished each other's essays in college. Many design companies are based on this model—friends aiming to create the next Pentagram or similar.

The other model is exemplified by companies like Wolff Olins. In this model, you have the "suit" (the strategist) and the designer. Wolff Olins was both the designer and the strategist, which structurally sets you up for different kinds of projects. By having a strategist and a designer, you introduce a certain tension that can make your work more strategic compared to a purely designer-focused team.

In a designer-only model, you often end up with little pyramids of people, each with their own designers working under them. Almost inevitably, something goes wrong. If I had £10 for every time someone sat in my boardroom and said, "We've known each other since the foundation," or "We choose each other's typefaces," I’d be rich. The first thing I say to them is, "One of you is going to leave." They often look at me with appalled faces, but it's best to prepare for it rather than be shocked when it happens.

We could spend half an hour going through the most prominent agencies in the UK, and we could easily identify all the people who have left. For example, the famous ad agency BMP (Boase Massimi Pollitt) had neither Boase, Massimi, nor Pollitt by the end. It's just the way it goes.

So, there are definitely two ways to structure a design business, which might differ from the advertising business. How would you plan for that?

Ian Paget

[ 00:19:32 ] Do you create a contract, get a lawyer involved or something which bit I mean in terms of working with somebody else and and essentially creating a setup.

Michael Johnson

[ 00:19:41 ] so that one of you can exit at some point and there's a mutual agreement up front and you're preparing for it well if you have a limited company then by definition there are a lot of people who are going to be there and they're going to be there and they're going to be there and they're going to be there and then if one of the if half of the shares want to leave then there's discussion about the shares i'm afraid yeah sorry this is a bit hardcore isn't it it's good to know because you know if you're going to start an agency you have to work with other people yes you don't necessarily have to have shares of course if you're not a limited  Company so then you've got an interesting discussion there about what's the value of half of companies which isn't limited, I mean you can have this really existential conversation about well how do we value what we have and that's that's an inside joke, it is it is okay.

Ian Paget

[ 00:20:24 ] So moving on to the next question, uh what was the biggest challenge that you faced in the early stages of of building the agency?

Michael Johnson

[00:20:32] Okay, I think the biggest challenge for any agency in their first decade is staying in business. That's a fairly clear challenge. Another major challenge for most design companies is doing something within the first three or four years that differentiates them from what they were doing in their previous job. I call this the honeymoon period. You have a bit of time—perhaps two or three years, which may have sped up a little due to the internet and all that.

If, within four or five years, you're still doing work similar to what you did at your previous employer, you're probably cheaper and quicker, but you're doing the same as before. It's really important to differentiate if you're trying to build something with growth and longevity. If you're starting a company, you need to do something that stands out within a relatively short amount of time. I think that's the biggest challenge in terms of standing out.

You're breaking our history into three acts:

Act One:

• Stay in business
• Do great work
• Differentiate
• Figure out how to be graphic designers, run a company, and be a creative director
• Learn to manage employees and help them grow rather than dictating how to do things

Act Two:

• Building on the foundation, deciding who you want to be
• We've established ourselves, won a few awards (which aren't very important), and have put our mark down
• Realising we wanted to be a branding agency, but it was difficult in the early years to get big branding projects from large companies
• Started with projects like the Shelter identity, More Than insurance, Christian Aid, Save the Children, and eventually UNICEF
• Noticed a shift to cultural, not-for-profit projects by choice of clients who chose us

About 10 years ago, we realised that 70-80 percent of our work was not-for-profit, education, and charity. This happened naturally, by client choice and our preference. For the last decade, we've been focusing on design that makes a difference—doing great work for good people and avoiding corporate clients.

Apologies to the corporate men in grey suits, but they would come to our office, consume our resources, and then criticize our work. We decided we didn't want to work with them anymore. We started subtly pushing them away by not responding or overpricing proposals. Eventually, we managed to pivot our work to the clients we really wanted to work for.

This shift took time—about 15 years, although it could probably be done quicker now. Even today, it's rare to find design companies where 90 to 100 percent of their work is not-for-profit. Many do what I call 'Robin Hood projects,' stealing from rich clients to give pro bono work away, which is borderline.

That was a long answer, sorry!

Ian Paget

[00:25:49] That was an amazing answer, it validates something I've noticed from others who have been successful, sort of specialising or niching - uh, they're staffed off as a generalist, so basically doing anything for anyone and then  Gradually, they start to focus as they get more and more of a specific type of work.  And I've noticed in most cases it happens organically, uh, especially when you're doing a lot of the work that you're doing and you're engaging with those who have been most successful, um, and I've even been noticing that myself now, within the science and healthcare sector that I'm organically attracting more and more, uh, work within a specific sector so at some point I will likely focus on that entirely.  And I feel that's happened organically.

Michael Johnson

[00:26:45] I mean what we found in our case was that of course that we were much more motivated by cultural projects, we started in the 90s. If you and your team are motivated by cultural and educational initiatives, that’s kind of where we began. We approached big charities seriously, not just in a “kitchen table” way—no offense to anyone working from their kitchen table—but with a genuine commitment. I was much more motivated, and the team was too. It just seemed like a no-brainer.

However, I don’t think we could be 67 people. There’s a reason why we’re a team of seven. Most people think there are 37 of us, but we’re actually just seven. I don’t think we could manage 37 people because, as you grow, you need more roles—like a motion designer. When the motion designer goes on holiday, you need a backup. Before you know it, you have 15 people, and then you’re at 25, and then 35. The "monster" has to be fed, which means taking on projects you don’t really want to do just to keep up.

That’s a very tricky, slippery slope for many design companies, and that’s why I chose not to go down that path.

Ian Paget

[00:28:08] That's a really good thing that you brought out there because I do want to start moving on to the third segment where we talk about growing the agency. And it's interesting that you've mentioned that you are a team of seven, but you are very well known, very well respected; um and I think it's a miracle how did that happen? It's a small group of people seven people is not many, yeah six actually at the moment, six. Do you mind me asking, I mean, you kind of answered it there, but why only six?

Michael Johnson

[00:28:37] I think that there's a pyramid theory where you have a creative lead, a project director, some finance support, and then layers of designers. This little pyramid structure is replicated all over the world in design companies. You can grow that pyramid a bit, to six, seven, or eight people, but after about eight, nine, or ten, it starts to get a bit baggy. Some of the people in the audience might be experiencing this bagginess, I’m guessing.

So, what you can do is multiply the pyramid, as some agencies do. Pedagogy is a good example of this—they have about 20 partners around the world, effectively creating multiple pyramids. For instance, Paul and Share might have six or seven people, Michael Blair might have 15, and some of the newer partners might have just two or three, but they all follow a pyramid-like structure.

This structure works well. Personally, I didn’t fancy the idea of being big. I didn’t want to be the person who couldn’t remember everyone’s names. We’ve managed with fewer people, which hasn’t stopped us from taking on large projects. The idea that you can’t handle big projects with just six or seven people is more of a mindset issue. It’s really about whether we can take on a project or not.

We regularly compete against companies with 77 or even 207 people. This is intriguing and challenging, but despite losing a couple of projects each year due to our size, most clients appreciate working directly with the people who will actually do the work. They prefer this over dealing with a pitch team or a slick new business person who might not be involved in the actual project.

So, I think it’s a good idea to work this way. We’ve found that we can handle big projects with a small team, which is quite a tough nut to crack, but we seem to be able to do it.

Ian Paget

[ 00:30:57 ] Sure, so in terms of growth, I think I personally see growth really as working with bigger and better clients, and you're in the in the position where you do work with a lot of well-known established companies now, so I think in terms of moving on to the future, I think  The next question what intentional strategies or actions did you take to attract those big clients?

Michael Johnson

[00:31:23] Okay, well, they're different. I mean, there are two ways to answer this. One is the obvious answer, which is if you do good work in a sector, it will inevitably attract people who have seen it. That's just a simple truth. For example, if you do a good project for a museum, another museum might notice it because people who work in museums are all in contact with each other. They're all friends. We did Shelter, and some of those people moved, which opened doors to other charities. So, a classic referral-based way to get bigger and better clients is to do something really good. You have to make sure you do something really good.

But at the core of the question is, how do you get the first bit? How do you get your foot on the ladder? That's where it gets tricky because if you're a small company, how do you get your foot on the ladder against people with 20, 30, or 40 years of experience? It took me nearly a decade to out-design Pentagram when I started, but it took me over a decade to outthink Wolff Olins. You have to have strategies for how you're going to get around this. What do you do if you're in a pitch against Wolff Olins? They have four consultants thinking about the project before you even get in the room with the client. You can't just say, "I did some stamps, aren't they nice?" You'll get utterly rinsed. You need your strategic thinking to be really sharp.

If you're in a pitch against Pentagram, they often pitch free work. So, you have to work out your strategy there. One way around it is to power yourself up if you're underpowered. For example, I really wanted to do a big project for the V&A Museum on an exhibition about William Morris. I didn't have extensive exhibition experience, but I knew I could do it. So, I bought every single book I could find on William Morris, read them all, and when it came time for the pitch, I knew everything about him. The curator even said, "I think you know more about William Morris's typography than I do." That's an extreme example, but maybe to get your foot on that rung, you need to be the person who knows more than anyone else in the room. That shows real commitment.

Another example is when we were asked to do Shelter. In 2003, an advertising agency called and asked if I knew any freelancers. They needed someone to design a logo for Shelter. I said, "I'm happy to do that." They were astounded because, at that time, the mindset was to bash out a charity logo quickly to focus on cool ads that could win awards. But we took it seriously and did a $20,000 project with about $100,000 worth of time. That was a huge door-opener for us. So, another trick is to really over-deliver. If you get your foot through the door, make sure you do it phenomenally well. That way, people will go, "Wow, this is a cool-looking scheme."

The Shelter project was the first time a British charity had their identity taken seriously. Five years later, Wolff Olins did Macmillan. Within a decade, Shelter and Macmillan rewrote the rules for the charity sector. Now, 20 years later, the sector still reflects that shift. Reframing a sector with your work is a great trick. If you can do that, people will hunt down the ones who did it. We sort of did it before anyway.

That was another really long answer, so sorry.

Ian Paget

[00:37:31] This is why people are here for this, for this stuff. 

Okay, I'm going to throw one last question at you prior to  opening up the room to some Q&A, because I think we do have some time. How is your business evolved over the years to handle larger projects?

Michael Johnson

[00:37:51] It seems we've touched on a lot today. When discussing pyramids, it's evident how much technology has evolved. Forty years ago, it would have been unthinkable for six or seven of us to collaborate in this way, but computers have transformed that capability.

Additionally, we have a network of strategists who work with me on the strategic side of our projects. We haven't delved deeply into this today, but there's a substantial amount of research, insight, discussion, workshops, strategy, and narrative writing that precedes the design of a logo. Some of you may already be familiar with this, especially if you're studying design thinking. For those who have read my red book, you'll know that you need to read through half of it before reaching the logo section.

Having a team to support and contribute is crucial. The strategic aspect of our work cannot be underestimated, particularly for larger projects. If you’re wondering how we manage to handle significant branding projects with a small team, it’s because we engage thoroughly in boardroom discussions. This isn’t about preferences like “I like this color,” or choosing a typeface because it looks cool. In the boardroom, it's essential to provide a solid rationale for every decision.

You need to present strategic options, verbal choices, and explain your reasoning before moving to the visual elements. This approach is key to successfully managing larger projects.

I’d like to open the floor now for any questions or discussions you might have.

Ian Paget

[ 00:39:42 ] else had any questions that they would like to ask Michael for the last 10 minutes?  If not, I will continue to answer uh, ask questions myself.  So, is there anyone that would like to ask any questions?  Well, if you say then we can oh yeah, say it out and then I can read it out so that people can hear it.  Uh, so basically how have you been able to keep focus throughout the last three decades?

Michael Johnson

[00:40:05] My gosh, when you put it like that, it's quite a long time! There are moments when you do lose focus, which I think is implicit in your question. There are times when your attention drifts a bit, and that's interesting—how do you cope with that?

I think there is a tendency, and it's possibly why our business seems slightly ageist. People tend to drift out of it once they get into their 40s and definitely into their 50s. If you want to stay in the business as I have, you've got to find ways to keep interested in the projects. Part of that is finding interesting projects. It's driven by the stuff that you're doing; it's trying to reinvent the kind of people you're working with and being careful about not just redoing the same thing.

This is a challenge because, in my case, my business is very common and comes in by referral. For example, we get a call every two months from a major higher educational institution wanting us to do some work for them. We could just do university brands all the time, but you don't want to keep doing that.

To answer your question indirectly, you're trying to curate the work that you're doing and who you're doing it for. This is tricky because there are moments when you don't have much work. A couple of months ago, we weren't as busy as usual, and I started to think, "Is this it? Is this the moment where it's over?" But you've got to believe in yourself and try to keep interested in design and communications.

There are tricks and techniques. If you just read graphic design books for 30 years, you're going to go slightly mad. I read every graphic design book ever made throughout my 20s, so I've done that. Now, I'm more interested in other things: architecture, art, and photography. I've been interested in photography for a decade. Having those interests around what you do—like film—has been very helpful. You're sponging up ideas and influences from the whole creative world.

If you narrow yourself to just black and white logos designed in '68, you're going to find that too limiting. Not that I'm dissing those logos—I love them dearly—but you've got to try and keep your brain alive.

Ian Paget

[ 00:42:50 ] Okay, any more questions from the audience we have? A few there's one here, okay.

They've asked about the impact of AI and your thoughts?

Michael Johnson

[00:42:55]  I think I fear that AI might have some impact at the lower rungs of the industry. You can already see the impact when you're searching for a stock photo; there are little stickers indicating whether it's AI-generated or not. So, there are clearly elements of the industry that will be affected.

I get eight emails a day that have not been written by a human but pushed through ChatGPT. So, at a base level of imagery and copywriting in my world, AI is having an impact because a machine is doing the work instead of a person. However, I'm hopeful that AI will eventually become just another tool that we can use to speed things up, which would be helpful.

For instance, the other day we were trying to visualise someone giving a talk in a church hall to a room of 50+ seniors. We wanted an image of a screen with 50+ seniors in the room, with a camera behind them. AI can generate that picture, allowing us to add the logo so the client can see the concept clearly. In a way, that's very useful. We're currently working on a project where I want to show people throughout different stages of their life. While I can use myself, my other half, and a few friends, I don't want to keep using them in layouts, and AI can help me with that.

I'm also excited about what AI is starting to offer filmically. So, my answer is if you can be excited about the possibilities, then great. However, if you're a jobbing copywriter or supplying pictures to stock libraries, then I'd be worried. I think people are embracing AI, and I'm happy to embrace it too because you don't want to be a Luddite about this kind of stuff. But I do think it's going to be another reset.

Ian Paget

[ 00:44:56 ] Yeah, I saw a project yesterday, uh, where somebody took some typography that they created and they basically wanted to make it look like orange peel and the traditional way of doing that would be to you know do it all in Photoshop manually essentially, so to take photo references and put it in, but what you can do is use it as a reference in Firefly and does it in a few seconds for you.

Michael Johnson

[00:45:27] From my point of view, AI is a useful tool and it’s going to be interesting. Last year, I was working on a project where I had an idea involving a client’s swirling monogram. This was for a stately home that later became a prison for German generals during World War II. The stately home had these swirling monograms on the walls, and after its transformation into a prison camp, I thought, “I wonder what these monograms would look like if they were made from barbed wire?”

So, I put this idea into an AI program to visualize it. Within 20 minutes, I could see how it would look if done photographically, and to Ian’s orange peel point, it did create an image. But it made me realize that if I went ahead with it photographically, it would end up looking like a death metal cover.

I decided that the idea was still good, but maybe it would be better if we drew it instead. So we drew it, and it looked nice as a drawing. When done photographically, it was too much. AI sped up the process significantly—imagine doing barbed wire in the shape of a monogram; it would have taken two days. AI allowed me to complete it in half an hour and quickly realize that it wasn’t a great idea after all. So, thanks to AI, I saved time and avoided a bad design.

Ian Paget

[00:47:01] Okay, I think we've got time for one more question, so are there any overlooked qualities of a designer that, well, the combination of a designer and a suit?

Michael Johnson

[00:47:11] I think that was the question—how the interplay works. In my case, commitment is a big factor. Both parties need to have an equal amount of commitment. In the early days of my agency, we suffered from a lack of that. If everyone is on the same page, the benefit of the three-pyramid model I sketched out earlier is that if the three design partners are of similar age, you would hope they have similar energy levels. You want to surreptitiously check that the energy levels and expectations are aligned.

Starting a company is very time-intensive and occasionally stressful. It's still stressful 30 years later. You need to ensure that everyone is ready for what's coming. For those of you considering this, I don't quite know how you check that. Maybe you take the person out for several drinks and look hard into their eyes, asking, "Do you realise what's coming here?" I just listened to this podcast with Michael Johnson, and he said, "You know."

I'm very careful now to ensure my designers don't work late. Maybe until half past seven, but that's it. I don't want to be that guy, and I don't want that kind of company. It's about making sure you're all on the same page. If someone is working ridiculous hours and another is going home at five, that's going to be a problem. If someone feels they're doing 75% of the work and the other is doing 25%, that will be a problem.

You have to structure it in a way that reflects everyone's needs. For example, if the suit designer wants to work from half-past nine to four and then go home because they have a small family, maybe that should be reflected in how people are paid. Just be honest with each other.

Equality is really hard. A friend of mine used to run a very famous international design company, and they realised that at one point, the American office was turning over five times as much as the English office. That caused a huge issue within what was technically a partnership. If one side is turning over 5x and the other is turning over x, you need to talk about it early. Otherwise, it will bite you in the bum quite quickly. That would be my tip.

Ian Paget

[ 00:50:07 ] So, thank you for those who have asked questions, we are at the end of our time, unfortunately.

Michael Johnson

[ 00:50:12 ] I think we could do it, you know, with all the shuffling about with you know, boxes and stuff.  Look, you could probably ask another couple of questions, you think so, though.  You see how people want to...  it's down to dandy really.

Ian Paget

[ 00:50:25 ] I'll ask one more question and then we'll wrap it up.

Michael Johnson

[00:50:29] So, the question is about what I learned in a roundabout way. I learned a lot from all the jobs I had before starting my own company. People often ask if they should start straight out of college or get a job first. You can argue it both ways. Working for other people was good for learning from great designers I worked with, but also for learning from other people's mistakes.

For example, one company I worked for nearly went under because of an unpaid $30,000 tax bill. They were turning over a couple of million, so $30,000 wasn't much, but it nearly sunk them. I watched others get too locked into one area of work, and I remember thinking, "You've got to watch that."

In terms of my own company, what have I learned? You can get distracted. At one point, I was very involved in D&AD as its president and writing my first book at the same time, doing way too many extracurricular things while running a small company. I lifted my head up from the proofs of my first book, and there was my accountant with a grey face saying, "Michael, we’ve got $30,000 in the bank," and I thought, "Okay, I need to concentrate."

It's interesting that if you take your eye off the ball and don't keep track of the numbers, it can be problematic. I'm not advocating for us all to turn into Excel geeks, but you do need to know what's coming in and going out. I've just come back from judging D&AD, and I learned a lot about how people are presenting their work now. We entered a couple of things that didn't get in, but I don't think it was because of the work itself. It was more about how we were presenting them. The bar for case studies now is so high that people are spending $50,000 just to make a case study.

You come away from judging that for three days and think, "Oh my God, how are we going to compete?" But after a couple of days and some very strong vodkas, you realise, "Maybe we had a good idea, but we just didn't present it well enough." You're always learning, which is the best way to be. If you're closed off and think everything's perfect and nothing can touch you, those are the kinds of companies that go down.

If I think about all the companies that started around the same time as mine, quite a lot of them are gone; they've either sold, been bought, or just disappeared. So, you do have to concentrate. The trouble is, in my case, I have to try to concentrate for three decades, but it is possible. I think it's possible. Anyway, does that answer your question? That was a nod for the tape.

Ian Paget

[ 00:53:40 ] Okay, we did have Daniel coming in waving...  I don't know how these this thing normally works, so I do need to wrap this up and bring this to  But thank you so much to Michael, I think we should all give him a round of applause.