Designing Illustrative Logos

Ian Paget: Jessie, one of the reasons why I wanted to get you on the podcast is because I've been following your work online. You're quite active in the LogoGeek Facebook Group and I've always really admired your work. And I was thinking, since I haven't heard you do a podcast previously that I get you on this show. And I'm going to enjoy this conversation. And I'm sure that listeners will do too. So I think probably the best place to start with this is something that I like to do a lot with the podcast is trying to uncover people's stories. So a lot of people see your work, what you're doing now. But I think a good place to start would be to sort of run through how you originally got into graphic design?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah. I think it's probably similar to a lot of graphic designers in the group. But I was always into drawing really since a pretty young age and devoured comic books, tried to replicate the art in there, and just drawing around in my free time, it was a hobby growing up. And then high school hit and we didn't have the same sharing technology back then. So drawing on desks until teachers sort of catch you and ask you to clean up all the desk, stuff like that. I was just always into art really.

I was lucky enough to have a stepfather at the time that got his hand on a bootleg version of Photoshop. And then it expanded sort of like drawing solely on paper to be able to scan your stuff and experiment with the digital side of things. So in high school I did maybe a few band posters. I was hanging out with musicians in high school. So kind of like gradually fell into that path, I would say. I tried the art college, never finished it. It was not quite what I was looking for. There was a break in my education at some point, and when I decided to go back to school there was a two year sort of trade school program in my hometown and I ran with it, and fell in love with what graphic design had to offer. And I ended in 2016 that course. So a little bit back now and did an internship, got a job after the internship at the place I did the internship, and just never left, never looked back.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it sounds like you had very natural progression. Something I experienced growing up is doing a lot of drawing like you did and I'm sure that a lot of graphic designers fall into this camp. People make comments about it like positive comments, which is nice to hear. And I think that encourages you to do more of it, and you end up falling into that category where you want to progress with that with further education and so on. Was always graphic design that you wanted to focus on or was it just more that you was into art and that's where you wanted to?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah, the latter, I would say. It's exactly what you pointed out, like you get positive feedback, you sort of develop or wrap yourself around this artist identity. And kind of what was the safest bet financially in my mind to invest some time and do something with my life was graphic design. So yes, more art type guy. And I saw an opportunity to make a living out of it.

Ian Paget: Yeah, make a life from graphic design which is pretty cool. I think anyone that works as a graphic designer, I think we're very lucky that we was really into drawing growing up, and now as adults we're getting paid to draw which is really cool. Okay. So anyone that follows your work online, they would assume that you are a full time independent graphic designer because you are churning out a lot of work and it's like really high quality, and that's something that I want to talk about probably later on in the conversation. But looking through things like your LinkedIn, and I read an interview that you did. If I understand right in that interview that I found of yours was a few years old now. But you do have a full time job. Is that still the case?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Still the case. I do have a family and it terrifies me being solely freelancing or having that ebbs and flows of financial struggle. So on my social, I get what you mean. I do like to put stuff out there and I do it often. 

Ian Paget: You do a lot, very frequent.

Jessie Maisonneuve: It's kind of like we can dwell into it a bit further down in the interview but I'd rather do this than watch TV. Like creating stuff for yourself to me is a bit more of an escape of little troublesome things of life and keeps me going kind of thing, those little projects. It comes back to that positive feedback too. I think there's something addictive to social media platform response. And I would like to say that I'm not into that.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I do understand it. Okay. So you have a full time job, you have kids, you're doing freelance, you are doing an awful lot of stuff and I'm quite interested about this. What you mentioned about feeling somewhat fearful of going freelance because I think a lot of what you post online is client work, right?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah, I would say 70% - 30%. So 30% would be client work and 70% is plain exploration and having fun with it.

Ian Paget: I think that's really admirable really that you are in this place where you have a full time job, you have your family, you're doing stuff that you enjoy, that's fun. But I do think you should probably consider at some point taking that leap and I think a lot of people will be able to relate with this, and I was in the same place a few years back. I think from growing up the way that you are supposed to do things in society, if you're going to follow the standard way of living is you go to school, you get educated, you go out there, you get a job, you buy a house, all this sort of stuff. And to jump out of that framework or that system or that culture has taught us to is actually quite scary. So I was also in that position where I had a full time job, I worked as a creative director. So it's a really good job it paid well. I did really good work that I enjoyed. It was quite a stressful job and I tend to perform really well under pressure so for me that environment was really good. But also like you I was doing stuff on the side of the full time job and I felt that fear of taking that leap. Even though the freelance stuff that I was doing was successful, I was doing a lot of stuff. My socials were growing, my name was getting out there, and I was getting more and more work. It sounds like you're in a similar position where you have this stability from your full time job but you actually have this thing that… you could take the leap. Is there any niggling feeling in your head in any way that you would potentially take the leap or are you quite comfortable in the sense that you have that full time job that's fulfilling you and bringing in an income? Because I think people will relate with this?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah, I'd say it's a daily battle honestly. But the comfortable side of things financially makes me not want to rush towards there, maybe one day kind of thing.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think the key thing is that you're building up that portfolio, you're building up that platform. And in a way it's kind of like a safety net should anything happen. And I think I actually think that all graphic designers… don’t matter what you want to do. If you do want to work for agencies, and there's benefits of working for companies of course, and some people just prefer it. But I think it's good to have and to build a platform of your own so that in worst case scenario say for example if anything should happen in your life whereas… not necessarily only related to work but I mean you could lose your job. Say if you suddenly needed to relocate for whatever reason having that foundation that company on the side it gives you this safety net. So if you do suddenly need to quit your job and relocate you can take on the freelance work and stuff like that. So I think what you've done is actually a really good safety net.

Jessie Maisonneuve: I think in our field it's almost… with inflation and all that like I don't know a lot of companies that can sort of support you to what life really is today. It's almost a necessity for designers to be able to branch out and find passive income and just have that extra cushion to round up their minds. It's a plus in our field that we can do that I think.

Ian Paget: Oh, yeah absolutely. I think we're very lucky as graphic designers that if we want to create something we have all the skills of companies and no other industry has this. Like every other skill set, doctor, plumber whatever; they have to use somebody else to start a company. But as a graphic designer we can create our own logo, we can create our own brand and identity, we can build our own website. If you can write content too then you can write all of the content. Literally we can do everything to start our own company. So it doesn't even need to be like logo design. It could be graphics for T-shirts and you can start selling products. There is literally endless stuff that graphic designers can do. I think the power of the tools that we have, the fact that we can create our own products, create our own brand, create our own identity, use social media literally we can be one man company without needing to use anyone else and it's cool to have that power really.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Definitely.

Ian Paget: I want to talk about your work and that's the reason why I've got you on here. So for anyone listening that hasn't seen your work, you do a lot of logo design work. But I want to add that there's a very distinct style to it, you use a lot of illustration type styles which some people would say is potentially a little bit too detailed for logos. But something that I really like about what you do is that you do create systems so that they are very versatile still. So I want to start by talking about your general style. So you have this really distinct style where has that come from? Is that something that you created yourself? Or if you've been inspired by something that you've seen somewhere and you're developing it from there?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Specifically the illustrations?

Ian Paget: If you look at your work there's a very distinct style to it. I could probably tell your work from like if fifty graphic designers pinned up their work on a wall, I would probably be able to pick yours because you have a very distinct style and approach to your work. I was just wondering if that was inspired by anything or is that just you've developed that yourself by working.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah, working and practicing a lot. Like you we sort of covered like… I produce a lot of stuff and I think the main driver was always illustrations. You know you’re thought in school to do geometrical logos or to simplify at all costs and it taught me composition, and just general arrangements of logo. But I always was driven by illustration and the stuff I put online is a bit what I want to attract work wise or just continue to push. So I think practicing illustration and trying to make it fit into the graphic design realm of logos has been what that style has evolved to be like just always trying to push a bit more of it in the process or making it relevant using a main illustration, something like a hero piece, and then breaking it down to make it applicable to what can be used without as much detail, without just the illustration being the logo. But influence wise I look at a lot of design in general.

I do scroll design a lot and I follow quite a lot of designers online and inspiration comes from kids’ books, kids movies, other designers, really a bit from everywhere it's cliché to say but it's kind of like always on. And some other really good artists that I think influenced the design style I have, just to name a few Lauren Griffin, she is @typogriff on Instagram. And I would qualify my work as a similar approach, like very illustrative and detailed. So there's something about I think like an older era of graphic design that had sort of those detailed… I'm not so studied in graphic design history but there was an advertising era that was just like so maximalist instead of minimalism. There's something that I've always been sort of drawn by these very elaborated artists and their artistry was so interesting. When I look at very simplified and geometrical logos, I see their need and I see their importance in the graphic design world but by preference I tend to shy away from that style, it's less personal or something like there's… even though not everybody can have the wits to simplify a logo to a pure sort of shape or very recognisable form. Sometimes it's so oversimplified that it feels like anybody could have that mark to be anything, like any business could have it for their own.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I think this is an interesting thing to bring up. So with logo design if you follow the rules, those rules don't really exist. “The primary function of the logo is identification”. So exactly what that looks like. There are rules but they're not necessarily setting stone and one of them is simple. And I've always thought that this is a complicated thing to understand and to explain to people as to exactly what simple means because I think people interpret simple as being as simple as Apple and Nike. And I think there is an argument that is the case for large corporates because there is an aesthetic associated to large corporate organisations and I think very simple shapes seem appropriate for that. Nut you rightfully mentioned that there is something lost and if you simplify down so much that you are literally left with something that's lifeless, which happens a lot, you see this a lot online. Like there are these really generic, boring, uninspiring logos that are out there just because they have been simplified down so much that they've lost something. And a lot of the work that you do has a lot of illustrations and there will be people that will argue that this is too detailed for logo design.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Since it is for exactly what you just mentioned, I don't think a big corporate environment would adopt those. It's kind of niche here a little bit.

Ian Paget: Yeah. As a graphic designer we need to understand the semiotics associated with certain style of imagery. And there are logos like what you do, which have really nice illustrations in there. There is this sort of vintage feel to it and that just seems so appropriate to the type of clients that you're working with. Like there are certain companies and certain industries where this style is appropriate. And why I wanted to raise simplification is… Okay, you’ve created an illustration and you could deem it like very detailed. But it's not, they are still simple, you still simplified it down, like when you look at it from a distance it's still simple, like you've got one focal point, you are following the general wall of simplification. It doesn't mean the minimal, it just means simple. You've narrowed it down to one core idea. Sure that one core idea just happens to be a little illustration but if it's appropriate to that industry, think like a Jam, like you want a Jam to look like it was made by your grandma, you wouldn't do something like Chase Bank, that's just really minimal because that would feel cold and corporate. You would want something that has this warmth and this handmade feel to it and your work has that quality to it. So there's always going to be industries where there's sort of more illustrative style of work. It’s just appropriate and just works. And yes, it's not minimal. Is it simple? I think so. I would argue that your work still falls into that category in the way that you are executing it because it's still performs in the way that it needs to.

Jessie Maisonneuve: I’ll take that.

Ian Paget: Okay. So I want to talk through your process. And go into as much detail as you as you would like to because graphic designers are listening and we love all this sort of stuff. When you get a project how do you approach it? Just talk through it from start to finish from getting a client through to finishing off that project?

Jessie Maisonneuve: I don't have the proper labels for them but we'll put labels on phases let's say. You know like discovery sort of phase which you need with your project, you meet with your client and you just discuss, you take in whatever they can give you to help sort of get the project going.

Ian Paget: So you're having a conversation?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Always ask at the end of this conversation to get some reference images. So whatever they like, whatever can help gear them the visual conversation afterwards. Initial conversation, initial request of references, visual references. And then I usually offer two concepts for logos or any work really. Like if it's a graphic T or whatnot, like it's still… you don't want to just come up with a sole idea just so that they can have option. But creating those concepts, I sometimes sketch on paper, I don't have a tablet or like an iPad pencil. It's like a cheap amazon… I call it my light table but it's the size of a tablet and there's a back light to it, and you can just like acetate really. So I sometimes will sketch an idea and then put a new sheet over it, trace it a bit better. It does what an iPad does, I just don't happen to have one.

Ian Paget: So I'll be honest I actually thought you did a lot of your work on something like an iPad just because of the style of it. It just has this hand drawn look and feel that you maybe got out your iPad. I know that you like to work on your sofa. So I assumed that you'd be sat there on like an iPad and drawing. It's interesting to hear that you are using… So when I was a kid I wanted to do animation. I never got one, but in these books what animators used to use, and obviously this has changed now, but they used to have these big tables with glass and a light underneath and it sounds like you're using something like that but kind of looks like an iPad.

Jessie Maisonneuve: It's just like you have a little spot to clip your paper on, and you have a little button, the backlight shows up and that's it.

Ian Paget: I like that. I like that idea because it means that you can even sit down in bed and draw because you can still see the paper, it's like an iPad but actually paper.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah, exactly. It's not good for the environment, iPads are better for that but I got used to this tool and now it's kind of part of the process. But yeah sketches happen there and then I bring everything into illustrator, it's my main sort of tool. And with an illustrator, what I do with the sketches all really centred around the pen tool. So again no iPad, no sort of proper digital way to draw my line work which is a big part of my craft as to line work. So I just use the pen tool and the width tool to craft the line work. And usually going back to the concept we're proposing here like our concept is pretty polished when I give it out to the client. Unless it's very nuanced and I need to show them sketches to sort of approve a direction prior to digitising it. So it's a kind of a fluid process. Like some projects I feel the sketch is necessary to show the client before digitising it. But some other ones, I will take a very polished concept and show them that. I usually show one concept at a time and not two together, I don't know why, I think it's maybe part laziness, part wanting to save time. But I show them a first concept and then they point out what works, what doesn't work, and we sort of bench that one. Even though sometimes they would just go for that one and then we create the other concept based on the feedback I got from the first one.

Ian Paget: Oh, interesting.

Jessie Maisonneuve: I already have a little tidbits of what works for the second concept, and eventually they choose the direction and we just polish it. But back to the concept themselves, I sketch but I also use lots of reference images for hands parse, hard thing to draw. If there's an animal involved I like to look at google images and look at pictures of the actual thing. And then there's the lettering aspect of things that I only recently really got into not just using fonts for the word mark or main sort of typography elements of a logo or a design. I was lucky enough to receive from my birthday a book. It's the lettering manual from house industries and just perfect digestible sort of introduction to lettering and the principles that make your type not look like it’s too amateurish. Like there's some rules that you have to follow that makes up the type look professional.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I think that this is one place. So I mentioned earlier about logo design rules that there aren't really any, typography there is. Because if you don't get the tiny details right then it looks amateur, it just looks weird. And you have to understand those rules in order to break them. If you're breaking them by accident, then it just looks sloppy. So if you don't know typography and your designer logos, please learn typography or just use and edit something that's existing. But it's probably one of the most important things that you can master and understand. Like I said, if there were any rules to anything in logo design, typography design.

Jessie Maisonneuve: I've been designing professionally since 2016. And I've been ignoring lettering for up until the last year and a half or two. And I kick myself because…

Ian Paget: I can say that you've been more excited growing up in your career about the illustration.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Absolutely.

Ian Paget: Like that's your passion. And you've obviously realised that typography is in order to do branding and logo design and you need to be able to do typography properly.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Absolutely. And it shows like if ever you visit my Instagram page after this and you scroll down. I kept everything on that page, and you can see progress, and you can see before paying attention to those rules how patchy it looked.

Ian Paget: I remember when I first got taught something with typography. I worked on my own logo for myself and I put it on the front of my portfolio, and obviously with my name like the IAN PAGET even if you do capitals or lower case it's got the mix of like the sharp points, the flat edges and the curves. And I met up with a typography guy and he looked at my work and said, oh you need to fix that fix that G. Because he said you're probably not going to get jobs because of that. And I was like looking and I was so confused. I'm like what's wrong with the G. And I didn't say anything at first but he got out a few books and he was sharing things. I mean I can put some links to in the show notes for typography books on top of the ones that you you've mentioned. But he was talking about something called overshoot and I never heard of this before. And I had no idea that when you have curves with a flat line the curve should overshoot slightly. I remember adjusting at first… To me it just looked weird because it's like that circle does line up with that. It took me ages to understand. But now once I learned that and obviously other things about typography it actually helps improve your work when working with symbols too because those rules that you learn with typography like overshoot also apply with shapes. So if you're putting like a circle next to a square then the circle should overshoot.

Jessie Maisonneuve: It's very interesting and I want to keep at it because it really helped my overall composition. And you feel free able to do a piece that has… what you want to do with the type plus the illustration. It opens a whole new world like as cheesy as that sounds. But like it really gives you freedom to understand those rules and to play with them.

Ian Paget: Exactly. I just want to sort of quickly run through again your process. So you first of all speak with clients and then you request image references, and there's not many graphic designers that actually do that. But another person that I know that does that is Allan Peters who I assume that you know, he's been on the podcast previously. He's also somebody that ask for reference images. And I think it's a really nice way of understanding general expectations of the client. And I think in your case and it kind of depends on the type of work that you're doing. So you are doing… like you said earlier on, the type of work that you want to attract is more illustrative style work. And for that reason that's what you're showing. So I assume with those images that are being shared, do they generally fall in line with what you've already done previously? Like do they ever like pull out examples of your work or do they ever show things that are completely different to your general style?

Jessie Maisonneuve: I would say often there's one of my pieces in there and then a few other pieces from other artists.

Ian Paget: Sure. So they clearly found your work. They like your style and that's why they've hired you. And that makes sense. I think that's a really important lesson actually that's worth highlighting. As a graphic designer show the type of work that you want to attract. So if there's anything in your portfolio that isn't the type of work that you want to do, please take it out and do more of the type of work that you want to do, even if it means creating some fictional work. But show the type of work that you want because that's what you're going to attract. So I think that's a really good one. Okay, so you talk to client, you get those images. You start working with sketches. Again I want to draw some attention and go into this section of it a little bit more because I think this is a really key part of your process. So you're not using an iPad. It sounds like you would like to but you're currently using tracing paper and like a light box kind of thing. So I think sketching is a little bit of a lost skill. Can we talk a little bit about this because I know when I've looked into the more traditional way of doing logo design. So pre-computer era if you look at… I think online there's some really good examples of Starbucks logo which I believe was done pre computers, you can see some of the work where the graphic designer stuck notes in a book and they've used tracing paper. But something that I've seen them do is like you draw your logo… and I think this applies more when it's very illustrative and you want to do variants of that. And rather than having to draw from scratch. You can take a piece of tracing paper or since you've got the light box, probably just a normal piece of paper, you can then go over a layer, redraw the parts that you want to keep and edit it. Is that the type of thing that you're doing?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Absolutely. And sometimes the sketch is more for composition, you can use your sketching for… Composition I would say like I still don't and can't draw lettering in the real world. So on paper it will look a certain way, but I have to bring that into illustrator to make it look polished. So the main purpose of the sketching is really just composition of your illustration itself suppose. And just figure out your character or whatever you're illustrating and have a rough idea of how you want the text placement to be. It doesn't need to be more than that. And often I will spend more time sketching and refining like putting a peice over and over the previous drawing on the light box just to get the illustration to a point that okay we're ready to make it shine digitally now.

Ian Paget: How close are you getting your sketches to the final thing?

Jessie Maisonneuve: It depends really like what style of illustration it is. I think like there's so much that I can do on paper that it'll always look a certain way. I do not have amazing drawing skills.

Ian Paget: I find that so hard to believe.

Jessie Maisonneuve: It's very cartoonish and it shows in my work. The sketch will be close but it still will have a lot of cleaning up in illustrator. And also if I want a different like a white on black illustration then the sketch is very more for composition and does not really look like the final illustration.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it does. I do a lot of sketching prior to working on a logo. And in general I encourage graphic designers to do that over using electronic mediums. I would even put like iPad into that category because there is something to the error process. So how I use the sketchbook, I don't get my work anywhere near what it's going to be, it's just idea generation. It's more that I can get like things I'm thinking about in my head and I can just scribble it down on the paper and get like a general idea. And then I'll just keep playing with that over and over again, and again this isn't stuff that I'm going to share with anyone so it is just a mess. I've actually got my sketchbook down on the floor now and it's just a mess like it is just me playing. But sometimes those… and you only get this with paper, I don't even think you get this on an iPad, but sometimes you slip or the pen ink blobs out or whatever, something weird happens, and it gives you an idea that you didn't necessarily think of or like the shake of your hand or something in that process of hand, pen or pencil to paper. It kind of takes the idea out of your head, puts it on paper imperfectly and that imperfect thing then makes you think of other things.

I had that the other day, I started working on this idea and it wasn't meant to be like a fingerprint but there was something about the sketch that looked a bit like a fingerprint in one of the cases and that actually made me think I can play with that. And that is why I think sketching is so important. I think it makes a lot of sense with the kind of work that you're doing because it is more illustration based and to get that general idea and general composition on paper makes a lot of sense. And it also makes a lot of sense using paper and a light box or paper and tracing paper. I've done this before. It's great fun. If you work on a computer a lot. So the amount of screen time I have per day is probably like most of my waking day being completely honest. So to get away from that and use paper is nice but the added layer of tracing paper, it's just kind of cool, it's kind of fun and if there's listeners that have never tried it, go and get some tracing paper from your local paper supply company and play with this because it's how graphic designers used to do it pre computers. And it's bringing back a little bit of that craft and I think it helps to improve your work, especially if you're doing more detailed illustration kind of work like you are.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yeah, there's something about the loose sketches that you're talking about that you're using that, there's almost like a phantom of the design in there. I don’t know how.

Ian Paget: Okay. So going back to your process, so we got the sketches, you’re then vectorising that. And when it comes down to presenting you like to present more than one idea but initially you present one.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yes.

Ian Paget: Okay. So you're presenting one and then based on the feedback you're taking that feedback and then developing other ideas. So either taking their feedback directly or maybe developing another idea based on that. You also kind of implied that typography is treated as a separate thing. Do you do the typography within the first draft of what you're presenting?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yes. If I don't show a sketch, so if I show a polish concept, because it's clear and we can show something polished rather than a sketch to nail down a direction a bit earlier on. The first concept will have a polished lettering style, a polished illustration. In general it could be the final piece technically. In this way I think the feedback… if the lettering is not quite the right style, well, we have an example to go from. So we've tested some principles of like ligature or just boldness versus something thinner or there's too much variations in the lettering or I wanted… like there's something to talk about.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So in a way by doing that one logo you're creating something that should start a conversation, and then based on the feedback of that conversation that's when you then go further and progress with things. Do you do that to cut corners?

Jessie Maisonneuve: I think possibly. Cut corners or I think there's something… I get the mood boards and I get the inspirational sort of decks that you can present to your client and I totally see the value in there. But it's not yet part of my process, I don’t know why.

Ian Paget: I think it's with your process because you have that step where you're asking your client to provide examples. Now that is almost like your client doing a mood board for you. They are giving you that visual direction. So you don't need that step of adding in mood boards because you already know the direction that they want to go. And I think because of the nature of your style, you are doing stylised artwork so in that case you don't need that. But I think if you're creating like a whole identity. With a lot of clients that I'm working with they don't know what they want, they come to me and they're giving like abstract words and I don't know what their interpretation of class is. For example, they might have a very different interpretation from me. So doing mood boards is good in that case because you are taking words and conversations and interpreting it visually with the mood board so that you can clarify that with a client. In your case, you don't need to do that because they've already got an expectation. I don't mean this in a bad way by the way, but you have a style of artwork that you create. So when somebody comes to you, they have a general expectation of the look and feel because you are intentionally attracting that kind of work. And there should be a general expectation when they come to work with you what the final thing is going to look like. And again that's not a bad thing. That's your choice and your approach.

Jessie Maisonneuve: It’s a presentable approach. I point them out where I want them to look to give me image references as well, maybe something I didn't mention. Not everybody knows where to look for inspiration. To give them a place like Dribble or just Behance or other sharing platform that designer put out work is helpful to your client. But yeah, maybe one day this will change and I'll see the value to actually push it further that exercise. It’s just what works for now with the time I have.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I think also as well it's worth the audience being aware that you have a full time job, you have a family, and you’re kind of treating this as a hobby. These other things you don't need to do that, you found a process that works for you, you specifically want to work on a certain style of work, and you've got the freedom to do that. Money isn't your priority, your priority is more finding projects that interest you and excite you, and you get these creative juices flowing. So I totally get it. Don't feel the need to explain yourself. I think people will be inspired by it. And I think even if you did eventually go full time, there's no set way of being a graphic designer. Anyone that says that can go elsewhere because it's just not true. I've interviewed so many graphic designers on this, everybody works in a different way. Yeah, there's step by step ways and systems that people follow and that's kind of inspired by people. But it doesn't matter how much you charge, it doesn't matter what your process is, as long as you have one and you stick to it, and you fulfil your client's goals that they've given you. The goal of this podcast is helping you to make a living doing this, I'm not teaching you to necessarily be the most amazing or the most… You know to do everything the right way is more about your finding clients, your creating work that fulfils you, you are doing what the clients love, and it's being used out there, and that's the priority for me anyway.

Jessie Maisonneuve: I totally agree. I don't think a process should be locked down even though when you get one. There's always value in exploring different ways of doing things and especially in this field you take in what you want, and you put out the work with what you want to be as a process. But eventually it will change and…

Ian Paget: Yeah, you learn and you develop as a graphic designer and that makes sense. Okay. So we don't have that much longer left. We've already spoke for like over fifty minutes. One of the later parts of the process is the presentation. Can you talk a little bit more about what you're showing and how you're showing that to your clients?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Yes. So like we said, it's really polished what I show as options. So usually like the stuff I share online is you have the family or the system of logo.

Ian Paget: How are you doing this? Is it like as a pdf that you're sharing over or something like zoom?

Jessie Maisonneuve: I usually let it with the client before I talk to them.

Ian Paget: Sure. So you're preparing like a pdf document, you're sending that over to your clients and then you're having a follow up call.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Exactly. Sometimes it's as simple as an email too. But yes, it's a pdf that has the family of the system together and then it sort of breaks it down into examples of the use of each elements of that system. Sometimes there's a brand pattern involved, showcasing that. If it's for a shop or something that can be physical either packaging designing or a restaurant I try to mock up some examples of how each piece would be used and follow up feedback session so either email or… some people are more comfortable talking about it and we have a call. But yeah, it's pretty simple like that.

Ian Paget: I used to do it like that and one of the main reasons I did it that way is because I had a full time job and booking in like zoom call is just not practical. And I assume that you're probably in that same boat. Can I recommend Loom?

Jessie Maisonneuve: Loom?

Ian Paget: Loom is a piece of software, and you can screen record and record your voice. And as soon as you press stop, it automatically uploads and then you just copy paste the link and send it over the client. So I used to do it the way that you're doing it. So I'd send over the presentation. I used to use one of these websites where you can transfer over large files and then they can download it. But what used to happen and I don't know if you're having the same challenge, but clients would open it before I've had the call with them and then they would show it with their friends and their family and then they would come with feedback before I've even had a conversation with them. And I mean that's fine and it was never a big deal, but it was really annoying because it's like… but I want to talk through this with you and present this to you and it's lost the opportunity. So once I was full time I had the time to be able to book in zoom calls and stuff like this, but then it used to get really annoying because sometimes a lot of the companies that I work with, they have like the person I'm working with, and then they've got a business part that they work with.

Sometimes there's like a CEO and just booking in that call can take a few days. And it’s like okay this is just slowing everything down. So what I started doing is I found out about Loom. And I think you can use it free but I pay, like it's under $10 a month. It's quite cheap. But what I do is every time I finish a project I get presentation ready, I hit record, I go full screen. I've got like my mic and everything because I do podcasting. But I just literally talk through the work as I would if I was to present it. When I hit stop, it uploads automatically to the website. I can change the name of it, I can edit it, if I need to I can cut it down, and then I copy and paste the link over to my client and then they can watch it when they want to. And you know what I found with this? I have got a client because of one of these videos. Because one of my clients that I work with, she sent over to another person that called me and he was already sold on it because he knew my work, he knew how I represented, he know how much I charge because he spoke to the other guy, he just wanted to go ahead.

Jessie Maisonneuve: That’s sound brilliant.

Ian Paget: It's good. So I would recommend looking at Loom.

Jessie Maisonneuve: And you know your personality shows through. Like you were saying if there's an instance that somebody wants to share your work because they were asked about where you got your branding and whatnot. And then you have something way more substantial to show somebody. That sounds brilliant, I'm definitely going to look into that.

Ian Paget: It's really good and it's cheap. Ironically most people that I've spoken to about this, they have applied it. And it saves time because you don't need to write emails to your clients to book in the calls. You don't need to have back and forth telephone conversations. Like even in meetings when you have a meeting with a client about this, usually you need to do all the niceties at the beginning, you do your presentation and there's feedback. Like just a basic presentation can take a few hours of your time. But with Loom literally I'm doing 15 minute long videos, and usually I get a quick email back saying, yeah let's go ahead or a short telephone call afterwards to go through it. So yeah, I recommend you look into that. But then obviously listeners if they feel that could benefit them as well. Look into that it’s a much more streamlined way of doing it. And if clients want to have a follow up in Zoom call just put that in. But they've seen it, they can share it with other people, they can watch it as many times as they want. If there's like 10 people that you need to present to, they can all watch it in their own free time, it's just much better for you and your client. So yeah, I do recommend that.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Definitely.

Ian Paget: Cool. So we're nearly an hour. So I think it's probably good time to wrap this up. Nut it's been really good to chat with you Jessie to get to know you a bit better and talk through your process, and how you work, and kind of what makes you click. I think people will really enjoy this because you're very active in the LogoGeek community on Facebook and I think people will enjoy getting to know you. So thank you so much for coming on and yeah, hopefully in a few years’ time we can do this again.

Jessie Maisonneuve: Well it was lovely and I really appreciate the invite. Thank you so much, Ian.