Designing Logos for Celebrities with Ibby Tarafdar

Ian Paget: I found out about you through the BBC series, and what I love about your story, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have this kind of domino effect, and based on that video I think the one thing that really made a big difference for you was the logo that you did for the boxer, Gervonta Tank Davis. Hopefully, I said that name correctly. You did that logo and that seems to have been your big break, and then there's a whole domino effect from there, so how did you go about getting that opportunity at the beginning?

Ibby Tarafdar: This opportunity had come up in, it was in 2017, so that's when I'd done the design, but before that this boxer, Gervonta Tank Davis, he signed to Floyd Mayweather and he's the highest paid athlete. He is the pinnacle of boxing and he's retired now, but at that time Floyd just started Mayweather Promotions and Gervonta Tank Davis was his prize fighter. And before any of this situation happened with Tank I was a big fan of Floyd Mayweather and I really wanted to meet him in person, but all of his fights were in America.

And then in 2015 they announced that they were going to be doing a UK tour and one of the dates on the tour was Cardiff, my city, so I was like, "Floyd's coming to Cardiff. I'll be able to meet him. This is amazing," and I was really disappointed in the promotion of the event, because I asked a lot of my friends, I was like, "Floyd's coming to Cardiff," and nobody knew. I was like, "Hold on. This is one of the biggest sportsmen, and he's coming to a small city and nobody knows. What's going on here?"

I expressed my feelings to my friend and he said to me, "Why don't you get in touch with the promoter, and tell him that he's doing a bad job and is embarrassing?" I was like, "Are you sure? Just ring the promoter and say that." Do you know the little number where you dial for the tickets?

Imagine I got the poster, I dialled this guy in Cardiff who's promoting the event and I just said to him, "What's going on here? Nobody knows," and then he told me he's having a little bit of trouble with the communication with Mayweather's team and that was affecting the promotion of the event, and he said to me, he was like, "If you help me promote the event, put up a few posters," it was literally only a week till the event, he was like, "You could meet Floyd," and I was like, "Okay. Cool. Let's do that."

Ian Paget: For you, knowing that you're a big fan, that's like "boom'... Definitely going to do it. That's awesome.

Ibby Tarafdar: Exactly, so I was going around my city, letting people know that Floyd's coming to Cardiff. You should come see it, and then literally the promoter said to me, "In exchange you can meet Floyd when he's in Cardiff," so I was like that's a pretty good deal, little trade off, so a few days before the event it got canceled, and obviously I was really high and now I was really low. I'm like what the hell? It got canceled, so we found out that the Cardiff City Council canceled the event, so what I had done is I had gotten in contact with one of Floyd's business partners and I just sent him a message on Instagram, before Instagram was the Instagram that it is today.

Ian Paget: How did you find out about that guy? Was it just searching on the internet and finding him through Instagram?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah. I knew Floyd's entourage, who his right hand man is, his whole team. I was a big fan, so I knew everybody in the background, and so I hit up his business partner and I just expressed what happened, and the next tour date was in London, so I asked if, I literally just said, "If I come to London can I meet you guys?" He responded to me and he was like, "Come to London, but no promises."

I rang my girlfriend, I was like, "We're going to London tomorrow." We jumped on a Megabus, we went to London and that's the first time I met Floyd's team, so his business partner had seen me. He pulled me in. He was like, "Listen, we're going to the club after this. Come with us," and this is all new to me. This whole American lifestyle of going out and everything is paid for you, that sort of lifestyle was ... I don't even go out, so I was new to all of this, so that was my first introduction to Floyd and his team, and that was in 2016.

And then in 2017 they announced the tour, the UK tour again, but this time Floyd brought his prize fighter with him, Gervonta Tank Davis, and I was at the event, a media event in London. It was nice. I was invited to all these crazy events that are media and press only, and I'm just this guy from Cardiff who just happened to get in. It's crazy, so I proposed this idea to Floyd's business partner.

I was like, "Listen, Tank hasn't got a logo." I'd been following Tank for a few years, so I noticed that a lot of boxers, branding in sports, personal branding in sports was just not even existent. Only the top tier athletes had a personal brand versus now, every athlete has a logo now, so I said to Floyd's business partner I want to do a logo for Tank and he responded to me with, "Where we're from we don't talk. We just do the work."

That's all he said to me, and again this is all different lifestyles. The Americans, the way they do things is very straight and direct. There's a lot of people trying to get stuff in America, so you have to prove your worth by doing the work, so I went home that week and I was on hustle mode. I was like this could be big, so I come up with this idea for Tank.

I contacted Floyd's business partner. I was like, "Listen, I've got this idea. I want to show it to Tank," so he put me in contact with Tank. I showed him the designs and it's funny, because originally Tank said to me, "Can you make more designs?"

Ian Paget: Really?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yes, so imagine I come up, I spent a whole week just really focusing and looking at this project as it's going to be big. I visualised it. It was going to be a big thing for me, and he responded with, "Make a few more designs," and at that point I had to think to myself what's the best way to respond to this? Because I believed in the design so much, so-

Ian Paget: Can I just interrupt? Was that work that you did just off of your own back and for free, or was there any money-

Ibby Tarafdar: That was off my own back-

Ian Paget: Yeah sure.

Ibby Tarafdar: That was off my own back. I was just like do you know what? I don't really think about money. At that time as well, money was not really, it wasn't even in my mind. I just thought about doing some work.

Ian Paget: I can imagine you saw the opportunity is big enough to make it worth your time, especially if you're a massive fan.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah. I just looked at it, I didn't know what it was going to become. I just thought it's I'm designing something for someone that I look up to, do you know what I mean? I didn't really anticipate it to be what it'd become. Yes, it's crazy man.

It's beautiful as well, because of the way everything come along, so he said to me, "Can you make a few more designs?" And I literally just sent a voice-note just saying why this design works and why it's a good piece of design, and I tried to give him a vision like if you wear it on your shorts, if you wear it on your hats, it works in big, it works in small.

Tried to just communicate that vision and his response was, "Okay. I love it. Here's my manager's details," and then that's it. He put me in touch with his manager and we worked through all the paperwork and that then, and that was in 2017. And it was amazing, because Tank's first fight with the logo was in London, so that was his UK debut and he wore, he was signed to Under Armour at the time and Under Amour got all of the merchandise officially manufactured, and it was so cool, because my design was used alongside Under Armour and it was all official.

Ian Paget: That's really cool.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, it was cool man, and then obviously the whole team wore that design at the press conference and it really had so much impact. It was so visible when you see it, and I had a vision. I had a perfect vision in my mind. I was like okay, Tank's going to wear this logo, but how can I leverage this? I had this idea of if I go to the press conference I need to take them something.

I can't go empty handed, so that's when, as you've seen in the BBC show, I come up with the hat, so I've got this custom hat made for him and I took it to London. And I remember I gave it to his manager the night before the press conference, and his manager was like, "He just wears what he wants," and so imagine these boxers, they're all about how they look. Their identity.

So the next day Tank wore the hat and he wore the kit, and I was just like, "Wow, this looks so sick," and the media all picked it up. There was a lot of media and press, like Sky Sports, BBC Sports, HBO. All these big guys were there, because it was a big thing, because Floyd Mayweather's protégé is fighting in London. It was a big deal.

Ian Paget: Yeah. You pretty much got your work globally, which is awesome. With the logo, because that logo's for him, people don't automatically think of the person that worked on it, but for you that must have just felt so good, seeing your work in so many places like that.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, and numbers. When you see people wearing your design in numbers, a group, like they're an army or something and they really represent that, it has a different effect man, versus one person wearing it, and then when you go to his fights and all the fans are wearing it, I'm just like what? I'm just walking through everything looking at people wearing it, and you can just easily say to everyone, "Do you know that I made it?"

It's an amazing feeling man, and that whole Tank thing as well. Tank, at that time, he was still on the come up. You didn't know how big he was going to become, and then he'd become two time world champ, youngest world champion. He'd become a lifestyle figure in boxing and it's like the logo was just getting bigger basically.

Ian Paget: I think with this type of thing, something I've noticed, a lot of the logo designers that most graphic designers admire had that one big opportunity, and I think that was that for you, so if I understand it right, after you did that you've been doing logos for loads of famous people now, which sounds amazing. Do you mind talking about what happened after you released that and what you're doing now in comparison?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yes, so after the Tank project, like you said, it gave me that global exposure, so I had I remember one time I was in Vegas and I had, I was already enjoying life, because at that point I felt like I'm in Vegas. I've paid for my ticket, I've paid for my girlfriend's ticket and I'd done this off my own back, and then I had an email from a former Harlem Globetrotter, and do you know Harlem Globetrotters? They're pretty big.

Ian Paget: I don't, no, but I can link to it. Do carry on.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, so I had an email from a former Harlem Globetrotter, and he said he'd seen my work on the Tank Davis logo and he really liked my approach, and just reading that email in Vegas on a rooftop with sunshine coming down and you already feel like you've progressed, and then you get something else on top of that, that was a nice feeling. It's like-

Ian Paget: It's like you on top of the world.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, that's how I felt, and then after that I come back to Cardiff, and then I had one day my phone was ringing and it said Beverley Hills. It'd come up saying Beverley Hills, unknown number in Beverley Hills. I was like who the hell is calling me from Beverley Hills? I'm in Cardiff, do you know what I mean? I took the call and it was a guy from LA, and again he said he'd seen the Tank logo, but he took a long time to find out who made it.

He eventually found me and he read all about me, and he loved my process and he wanted to work with me, and he'd become one of my biggest clients for the rest of the year. That was again 2017, and then from that it led to somebody from Jay-Z's company, Roc Nation. They had also found me on Instagram, and they liked my approach and my understanding of the culture, so they got in contact-

Ian Paget: Can I assume that, that came from that Tank logo as well? I might be wrong, but someone like that doesn't just stumble across you on Instagram. I might be wrong with that, but I assume that they saw the Tank logo, was looking to find out who it was, and then came to you in that way. Do you know at all, or?

Ibby Tarafdar: I'm just fast-tracking through my stories, but my stories are so ... Each root has its own story, do you know what I mean? So what happened-

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's crazy, because this is only three years ago.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah man, a lot-

Ian Paget: You've done a lot in a short period of time, so sorry for interrupting. Do carry on.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, so the whole Jay-Z thing had actually come from, basically, there was a photographer. His name's Jonathan Mannion and he shot a lot of Jay-Z's album covers, and his family is actually from Wales and they immigrated or emigrated to Brooklyn, and he ended up shooting Jay-Z when Jay-Z was young, when Jay-Z was on the come up. And I had sent him an email in 2013 just saying that I like his photography, and a few years later, in 2016, he was doing an exhibition in London.

I went to visit him in London and he was so happy that I traveled all the way from Cardiff to London to visit him and he gifted me this big portrait of Jay-Z, and he took a picture of me on his Instagram and just wrote a little thank you. And then someone from Roc Nation, Jay-Z's company, seen that post with this photographer and this designer. Clicked on me and then seen the rest of my work that I've already done.

Ian Paget: I see. It sounds like an unconnected thing. It's not so ... I said about this domino effect, that it came from that, but it sounds like you sow the seeds quite early on, and just being in the right place at the right time.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, and I'll give you a few more details. The Tank project, Tank was on the undercard of Mayweather-McGregor, which was the biggest fight in boxing history. That was in 2017, and Tank was the co-main event and he wore that logo, and that was obviously massive exposure, but it was every celebrity in music and sport exec was in Vegas that whole week, because this was the fight.

So I was in Vegas that week and I attended some basketball game I was invited to, and I ended up meeting a lot of people from Jay-Z's company, Roc Nation, so that's when I was able to talk to senior vice president actually, of Roc Nation at the time, and I started to like you said sow my seeds.

I just showed my face and just let them know that hey, I exist and I'm this designer, and I'd done Tank logo. That was just at that point, do you know what I mean? It's just creating awareness.

Ian Paget: It sounds like you're really good at networking, because you've taken this opportunity and you didn't just go there and sit around, and hang around in that hotel room. You've been talking with people, networking, getting to know lots of different people, so am I right that you're the type of person that pretty much is happy to go up to anyone and chat with them, and tell them what you do and all that sort of stuff?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah. All of this is something that I've refined over the years, because I take my girlfriend with me to most events and she always advises me on what to do, and when to approach and when not to approach, or when not to say too much. She's my eyes basically. She's my eyes, and this is another thing, I learned so much by just ... I used to be very, not aggressive, but my approach was very pitching myself 100% at all times, but then I started to refine it and wait for the right timing, and people are with their friends and people are relaxing with their girlfriend, do you know what I mean? It's all about timing and understanding social dynamics, because Americans, they're very different in the way they conversate and the way they do things. It's not like the British people, and this is what makes me different as a designer too.

Ian Paget: How would you approach it differently? You said that originally you would have went in and started selling yourself. How do you do it now? I've spoken to someone, it was a while back now, but a year or two back, and she said treat networking like making friends, so just make them like you. Are you taking that same approach?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, I don't try too hard. I never have this intention of I'm going to sell myself. It's genuine for me. It's always I've seen your work, I like it, I've been following you for X amount of years and I see what you're doing. It's like people understand when it's genuine and you appreciate them for a genuine reason versus these guys at this level, this celebrity level, this A list level, they've been around everything. They've seen so many pitches, do you know what I mean?

They can see through you so quickly, but I think one thing that works for me personally is that I'm always with my girlfriend, so when they see that your partner is by your side they can see that you're more committed, because one of Floyd's business partners said to me, because I asked him before, "Why did you respond to me out of all people?"

He goes, "You're loyal and you're always with your girl," so for them it's about that loyalty and you're committed. You put your money in. If you brought your girlfriend you most likely paid for her as well, so you're invested into the situation. There's a lot of things these guys look at. It happens so quickly, but I learnt this over time just by thinking about it in hindsight and being like what worked for me in this situation and what didn't work for me? Let me tell you a crazy story.

Ian Paget: Yeah, go for it.

Ibby Tarafdar: I was in Vegas one time and I'd seen an exec that works at Jay-Z's company, Roc Nation. I approached him and I was like, "Hey Brian, what's up?" He was like, "Hey, how're you doing?" I was like, "I follow you on Instagram. I like what you're doing," blah-blah-blah, and he was like, "Where are you from?" We conversated. Anyway, I can sense it was dismissive.

One year later I was at Roc Nation, at the office and I was being shown around the office, and I'd seen Brian in one of the rooms, and I was like, "Brian," so imagine this guy, this guy that dismissed me in Vegas one year prior, and then the following year I'm in his office like telling him you dismissed me, but I still managed to get into the office, do you know what I mean? It's mad.

Ian Paget: Hang on, did you tell him that?

Ibby Tarafdar: I didn't tell him, but it's like everything changed. He's like, "What are you doing? Who are you working with?" All of a sudden, he's giving me his number.

Ian Paget: Yeah, how he perceived you was totally different.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, so things changed and I'm one of them guys. I've had no so many times and I don't really take it personally. I'm just like in baseball they have three strikes, I'm just like that's just one strike man.

I've got two more to go, so that's my sort of approach to the whole situation, but now I've built up my portfolio and my image. It's a lot of people know of my existence, so it's really easy for me to just build upon that versus just starting from scratch.

Ian Paget: Yeah. That's why I mentioned about that compound effect, because I think, I guess becoming successful is a bit like a domino effect. You need that first thing, and then it starts knocking down these bigger things, and then you get to a point where you are now.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah man. It's crazy.

Ian Paget: As I said at the beginning, I know you from this BBC series. How did that come up? That's a massive opportunity again, so you've already had your work shown all around the world, which is for a logo designer that's the best opportunity that you can get, but then you got this opportunity with the BBC, which is how I know about you, and they have a huge audience as well, so how did that all come about?

Ibby Tarafdar: The thing about me, I know what works for me. I know what works. I know my story is very unique and a lot of people can relate to it. Also, being Asian, being brown, being in the design world it's like there's no brown people. Every events that I go to I'm always the brown person, do you know what I mean? So I knew, I used it to my advantage. I would contact companies as well and be like, "Listen, you've got no brown people in your list of whatever," and I would use it as you need someone like me, because I have a cultural understanding that you guys are lacking.

With the BBC it was funny, because they found me, so they had a guy that was in charge of finding ethnic minorities, because they needed more brown people basically, and they had this show and they wanted young, brown people, and this guy, he actually reached out to my friend and said to my friend, "Listen, do you want to be on this BBC show? I think what you're doing is really cool," and then my friend was like, "Listen, I'm not ready for this opportunity at the moment, but my friend Ibby, I think he's in the perfect position to be on the show."

So actually the ball was passed on to me and that's amazing, because you were talking about the domino effect, but there's this other thing, which is timing. Timing is everything.

Ian Paget: Yeah, absolutely.

Ibby Tarafdar: I plan, I market myself in a way where I don't have many podcasts, number one. I could have been on podcasts a few years ago, but I decided not to be on podcasts, because I want to share my story at the right time with the right audience, so I'm very specific in my approach, even the whole TV thing. I had opportunities to be on TV before this BBC thing, but I had this image, I'm not ready yet, do you know what I mean?

I'm always this guy that I want to get things right and if it takes me five years, six years, seven years, it don't matter. If it takes me X amount of money, investment, I'm just going to wait. I'd rather wait to get it right, and when the BBC approached me they said they heard my story, that ... We haven't even mentioned Starbucks man.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I know. There's so much that we could speak about. We've almost spoken for half an hour and I know there's a number of ways that we can go, so since you mentioned the Starbucks let's speak about that, but I do want to go back to what you mentioned about ethnic minorities, because at the time of recording this it's not long after everything that's happening in the States and in the UK with Black Lives Matter. Carry on with your Starbucks story and we'll go back to that topic.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, so Starbucks is I've been in working at Starbucks for almost 10 years. November is going to be my 10 years in Starbucks. I've been working there since college and it's funny, because-

Ian Paget: Wait, are you still there now?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, I work here-

Ian Paget: No way, you're still doing it.

Ibby Tarafdar: I only work there two days a week, a 10 hour shift, so it's five hours and five hours.

Ian Paget: Why?

Ibby Tarafdar: I mentioned it in the BBC show. I feel like as a designer it's important to be connected on the ground level to see what's going on with just every day people, and again it's social skills. Knowing how people speak, how people think, how people do things.

I'm very aware when I'm working in Starbucks. I look at everything and everybody, and just the way Starbucks as a brand works as a well, so I think that all goes into my design work. I'm very psychological in my approach. I talk to elderly people, I speak to young people, I speak to different ethnicities. All different types of people, so that means I'm able to better design, because I know what they like, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: Versus when you're sitting behind a computer trying to design and watching a bunch of videos. It's never the same as being in physical contact with people, and that goes back to the whole why my social skills are so good, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ibby Tarafdar: If you think about it, everything is connected. It all comes from somewhere, so that's the whole thing with Starbucks, and at this moment Starbucks is very supportive of everything that I'm doing, and obviously them as a brand as well, they've got a massive platform as well, which I have been timing.

Ian Paget: Yeah. That's awesome, that you're still doing that, because that's an important thing when you're designing a logo, to understanding who you're trying to target, what attracts them. Learning about the world out there. That is probably one of the most important things that graphic designers can do and it's cool to think that you're doing that, so do you reckon that you'll always stay in that Starbucks job?

Ibby Tarafdar: No.

Ian Paget: Because you're doing well.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah. I wanted, basically I think of my life as it's going to be turned into a film type of thing, do you get me?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: I plan chapters in my life, so I felt like 10 years at Starbucks, that's going to be in November, 10 years in Starbucks is a nice little number and it's a nice way of marketing myself as well. This guy worked in Starbucks for 10 years. What does that say about me? That says I'm loyal, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: I'm really about loyalty and like, "He's committed," do you know what I mean? I'm a committed guy, so I look at it from that perspective. I think after 10 years I'll be like I said more marketable, so again I look at all these like headlines almost, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: I do something similar, although it's not quite the same as what you're doing, but whenever I've had really bad times in my life I say it like, "This is a chapter in a book," and then in my head I start having the music that would go with the moment and it literally just cheers me up. That I can just imagine that this is a bit in the story and within stories things always pick up, so it's a similar kind of thing.

Ibby Tarafdar: That's the way. You have to have that sort of outlook, because, how do I describe it? I'm more than just a graphic designer. It's my whole lifestyle around me that sells, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: The more that people can relate to that lifestyle the more valuable you become, and the whole this guy works in Starbucks, so he understands how it's like to wake up in the morning and just go to work, but he also hangs around with celebrities, so he's also in that world.

Ian Paget: Do you know what? It makes you seem very grounded, that you're very relatable and real, even though you're doing all this stuff that could be deemed as working for the rich and famous, and all this sort of stuff.

Ibby Tarafdar: Let me tell you something so funny man. One time, I had a customer I was talking to, he was wearing some boxer related t-shirts. I was like, "Oh, you like boxing," he was like, "Yeah, I love boxing." I was like, "Do you like Floyd Mayweather?" He was like, "Yeah, I love Floyd," and I was like, "I've worked with Floyd Mayweather," and he looked at me like what the hell are you on about?

He looked at me like, he said to me, "If you worked with Floyd Mayweather, what are you still doing here then?" And then I took it like I have to prove this guy wrong now, so I just pulled out my phone and I showed him a couple of pictures of me and Floyd, and his face was just like, "Did I just meet this guy working in Starbucks?" Do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: It's almost like you've got a trump card, that you've got that you don't pull out, do you know what I mean? It's funny.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's funny.

I think it'd be good to go back. Right, okay, so at the time of recording this, for people listening, this is just literally at the time where in the States there is the Black Lives Matter movement, and on this podcast I do try to avoid things that could be deemed as political or racial, or cause any upset for anyone. I try to keep it focused on logo design, but the way that you look at it is interesting, how you're seeing it as an opportunity for you. Can you talk more about that? Because I think this will be really interesting, because this podcast there are a broad range of people that listen to it.

I looked at my Spotify stats, Spotify have a lot more stats on podcasts than others, and there's a broad range of ages, locations and stuff like that, so there will be people that'll be listening to this that are of all backgrounds, all ethnicities and so on, and the whole, there's a lot of anger around the movement at the moment and that's why I wanted to avoid it, but you're seeing the positive of it, which is really different to anything else I've heard from this. Can you expand on what you're saying? I know prior to speaking you did say that you had a lot to speak about on this, so I'd love to dive into it with you.

Ibby Tarafdar: For me, growing up in Wales, racism was normal. As a kid, I just thought it was normal, people coming up to me and saying you're brown, do you know what I mean? I thought it was normal as a kid, and then as I started to get older I didn't really let my colour affect my movement in life. I just had this mindset of whatever I want I can get. I didn't know that my colour was actually slowing it down for me or preventing me from getting into certain situations.

Being in the design world as well, I think a lot of these places that I go to outside of the music and sports, I go to a lot of design events and they're always filled with white people, and I look around and I always think to myself where are all the brown people? Where are they? I think as well for a lot of white people, they don't pay attention that they're the majority in these situations, and I'm going to use amazing example.

During the '60s, 1960s, for me, I've been reading so much about furniture recently, because that's been my vibe, so I made this connection. During the 1960s, black people were fighting for the Civil Rights whilst, do you know the Eames? Ray and Charles Eames?

Ian Paget: I don't. No, but carry on.

Ibby Tarafdar: Okay. They're iconic furniture designers, mid century design, and in America the Eames, they're a white couple, they were making iconic pieces of furniture whilst black people were fighting for their rights, so in my mind I was like this is crazy. Black people were fighting for survival while white people were just creating, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's wrong.

Ibby Tarafdar: It's not even wrong. That's why the art world is so filled with white people. They've been doing it for a long time, do you get me?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: Black people were just trying to find their feet, so in terms of the design world just being filled with white people it makes sense. It's from back in the day.

Ian Paget: Because you're paying attention to it, is that the same everywhere that you've gone? Because I lived for a long time in Reading, just outside of London and that was a very multicultural place. I've since moved up north, just outside of Manchester. It's very different here. Has that been the same everywhere that you've gone or has it just been in Cardiff?

Ibby Tarafdar: No. What I'm saying about the design events, that's most design events that I go to are filled with white people, but in terms of where I live, in Cardiff, Cardiff is very segregated and this is one thing that I learnt as well, because I've been around so many different types of people and different worlds. I think that's the most important thing, in different worlds.

I grew up in a white area and then my dad had a bookstore in the Asian area, so I was split between all these different worlds, and then growing up I'm going to America and seeing that, going to New York and just seeing most of the people that work in Starbucks are black, but then when I come to Starbucks in Cardiff everybody's white. So I'm seeing all these different things going on and I started to realised that it's an advantage for me, because a lot of these companies that have a lot of white people.

I just come in with this approach of listen, you guys need brown people and this is why you need someone like me, because I understand a whole different audience that do listen to, do buy your product and are interested to you, but you don't connect with them, because you don't have anybody that can communicate with them, so then a lot of companies would contact me. They would hit me back up.

I would use it as my advantage, but then again I was thinking about why am I like this compared to everybody else, because after the whole BBC thing I have a lot of young brown kids, black kids, they come up to me or they messaged me, and then they say to me, "Because of you I'm going to do graphic design," or, "Your story inspired me," and again I realised relatability.

All the designers, everybody that I look up to, they're all white in terms of the design world, and then all the athletes and musicians are black, so it's like there's a real divide, and when you're a brown designer you have all these young kids that now they want to be a designer, because they see someone who looks like them designing. Do you know what I mean? It's like-

Ian Paget: Yeah, I do. It's different for me, because I am white, so I'm not paying attention to it in the way that you are, and it's why I want to be sensitive on this subject, because I agree with you. Look back 50 years ago, every single designer is white and there aren't so many role models, but do you think that is the solution, that there just needs to be, if there's more role models in that particular industry, then it supports that?

Ibby Tarafdar: Absolutely. One of my biggest role models in design is this guy called Jeff Staple. He's a designer from New York and he's Chinese, and his story I remember, when I listened to one of his interviews back in the days and he was saying he's Chinese and how he grew up in these white environments, and he loves hip hop and he loves all these urban things, and going into that design. I could just relate to him, do you know what I mean? I was like him as well. Racism was normal for me, but we just love design so much, do you know what I mean?

That world is so far away from us and when we start getting into it, it becomes interesting, and again that whole relatability. People being able to relate me being brown, all these kids. You feel a responsibility. You feel like do you know what? If you see these kids' faces, they're really inspired, so then I'm like what else can I do to inspire them? Because a lot of kids they feel like, because of their colour, they can't do certain things.

A lot of the people that I grew up with, brown kids, they feel like they can't do this, because they're brown, and I'm like I never, because I never viewed it like that. I thought I can do anything, and these guys, they've got the other end of the stick where it really beats them up and puts them away, because there was a lot of great artists that I went to school with. Any of them could have been like me, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ibby Tarafdar: They felt like that's just not their territory, so now I think it's that time now, where that conversation and that whole, people are aware of it now and the platform is there now.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's got me thinking a lot more. I look back through my podcast and it's not why I got in touch with you, I got in touch with you a few months prior to this, but I just noticed looking through most of the people on my list are white, and-

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, and you didn't even know it, did you?

Ian Paget: No, I didn't notice. I didn't realise.

Ibby Tarafdar: That's what I mean.

Ian Paget: I try to make it a mix of male and female, and I didn't notice. I've had Asian people, I have had black people, but it's primarily white people and I didn't notice, so in terms of what I do, I know I can help with that in terms of using this platform that I built to give a voice to people. I think what you said, is so inspiring. I think you're going to inspire a lot of people and I'm so glad that we spoke about this.

I did want to avoid the topic, because I didn't know where it would go or what we'd end up talking about, but it's been really inspiring and I know that I can help with that as well, and it sounds like it's something that you really want to make a difference with. It's really nice to hear that someone is ... It shouldn't be the way it is, but to see it as an opportunity is a really nice way to look at it. You're looking at the positives of it and doing what you can, and it's-

Ibby Tarafdar: I think it's I've always had this approach. I always took it, used it to my advantage. I'm like, "There's no brown people in this field. That means I can take over." I've always had this sort of, yeah, it's mad. I have that approach while other people are like, "There's no brown people. I can't enter." I have the opposite approach, do you know what I mean? It's just all in the mind, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely.

Ibby Tarafdar: That's why with this whole studio in Wales, when I'm in university, all of the design studios are just run by the same looking guy, and for me I was like what the hell man? All of these founders, they all look the same, and they come into our universities and giving talks, and I'm just like, for me I looked it as stale.

It's stale, do you know what I mean? I was looking up to these designers in New York and there was a lot of mixed designers, and I was like whoa, these guys are so cool, and then we've got these founders in Wales and they're just all the same. They all like the same beers and rugby. They're all the same and I'm like design is about being different, isn't it? Design is about peoples' perspective.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Obviously, I'm a white male, so it's hard to say, but in terms of my background, I grew up in a council estate. My parents were retired. I never had that role model as a parent and it's only been through the internet that I've found people that I can learn from and see what they're doing, and I think role models are so important.

It's obviously been easier for me to find people that are relatable, and people that I can learn from and adapt from, but I think with what you're doing and the way that you look about things, I think that's quite unique and I think you can be a very good role model for so many people.

And I don't know if you've thought about doing anything more to make yourself, I don't know what the right word is, more of an influencer. Someone that really gets out there, you know how we've got like Chris Do. Chris Do is Asian, but really going out there, really pushing it and really trying to be more public facing, so that you can get those people that you can inspire and so on.

I love your mindset and how you're thinking about this. It's a very complex, very difficult thing to speak about, and I just think it's really nice, the way that you're looking at it is just so nice to hear for me. I know that I can help, but it needs to come from you. You're the one that needs to be the role model. You and anyone listening to this that are in the same boat. Become that role model. Use the opportunity.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, of course. That's what it is. You learn. When you're in different worlds and around different people, you get the best of everything, and you're able to put it all together and communicate it to the world, and that's an ability that you have to learn it through experience, do you know what I mean? I've been to restaurants and events like I mentioned, and it's just all white people, but I've always felt like let me see what these guys are about, versus I'm outside, I shouldn't, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Ibby Tarafdar: I'm always learning in that sense, and even going to America, most of my success come from African Americans, so when all this stuff is going on I'm really in the heart of it. I know how they are. I've been there. I've seen it in person, firsthand, so it's very strange for me with everything going on. That's who I looked up to, the African Americans, when I was young, because that's who I could relate to, so I think you're right about the whole role model thing and I probably will become that guy, but I'm not forcing the issue too much.

Ian Paget: I don't think you need to force it. I think you become it. It's just a natural progression and you become that person that people look up to. Just this conversation now I'm sure you're inspiring a lot of people. I feel quite inspired by it. Like I said, being in the UK I'm sure you've seen it as well, looking on social media, on the news. There's so much anger and so much negativity, and it's just nice to hear how you're seeing it. It's really awesome.

Now, I know we don't have that much time left, but I want to use the rest of the time to dive into your process, because watching that BBC series, and I'll link to it in the show notes, you do this, I think you approach it differently, so I'm going to explain what I see and then you can expand on it, so if I understand it right, first of all, you're meeting people in person, so you're traveling, which is amazing. I don't do that myself. I do everything via email.

You're presenting sketches, first of all, which again I don't present sketches personally, and then after you've agreed a direction by sketches you then do a really fancy presentation in person again, which you treat almost like a show, and you even go as far as bringing along things to show products and so on. If you're okay to go over the hour we will, because I've got a little bit of time, so do you want to dive into your process?

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, so the process is I start off with brand question, I get all the details from the client, and after I get the details I'll have a little chat with them, just catch a vibe. Every client is different. When it comes to celebrity clients, they're not filling in no questionnaires, none of that. You have to fill in the questionnaire yourself just by talking to them or watching interviews with them, so after I get their information I'll start to come up with the ideas, so all the sketches.

Sketches is important, because you have to communicate your vision and the story and the process. A lot of people, they need to see how you got to that end result. You can't just hit them with the end result, do you know what I mean? It's a bit ... They don't know what happened before that. That's how you create value as well, so I got the sketches and then I'll go meet the clients. I'll show them a couple of the ideas that I've come up with and which direction we should go in, they pick-

Ian Paget: Can I just interrupt you, so in terms of meeting the client, just to be clear, sometimes when you say meet the client you mean fly to LA.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Okay, that's not normal, so are you charging so high you could just do that?

Ibby Tarafdar: No. I invest a lot of my own money. A lot of the times I invest my own money, because I look at it as you know in those films when they hire an assassin or a hit-man? And then he turns up with all the best equipment and he just does the job, do you know what I mean? I look at my approach like that. I'm offering a personal service and I want to show people that I'm invested in them just like they're invested in me, so-

Ian Paget: Yeah. I mean that like a flight and taking out, a flight takes a few days first of all, so you're losing a lot of time and you're going there as well. Are you charging for that?

Ibby Tarafdar: No, I don't charge for the flight.

Ian Paget: Are you losing money on projects? Just out of curiosity.

Ibby Tarafdar: I don't think I lose money, because sometimes I get a lot more when I ... It's funny, all of my trips, I get a lot more than I went in with, so I would use, say for example a flight to LA or something costs £500 return. I would probably come back with four, five grand worth of work, and it always happens, because-

Ian Paget: Right, nice.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, it's crazy. Once you realise this works you do it more and more. It becomes literally I would just book a trip to New York next month. Obviously not at this time, but if I feel like you know what? I want to get some work, I'll just book a flight to New York and just pick up work. I would just find myself in a situation where I just happened to get some work.

It's crazy. America's crazy. You end up in some mad situations and you're just like, because everybody knows someone that needs work and when they attach your name to Jay-Z or to Floyd Mayweather it's confirmed you're getting the job, do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah, so when you go over are you meeting people that you already know or are you getting those opportunities through just mingling, networking with people?

Ibby Tarafdar: Some of the opportunities I'll get from mingling, so I'll be in a café or something, or I'll be in a tube station and I'll meet somebody, and I'll just talk to them.

Ian Paget: Sorry to interrupt, so for you it's a little bit like a lifestyle, it's almost like a lifestyle thing.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yes.

Ian Paget: Cool. It's inspiring.

Ibby Tarafdar: It's lifestyle. I don't really think too much about it and I never look at anything in my life as a loss. It's always a lesson, so I'm never like, "I'm losing." I don't even use that word, lose. I don't even, it's not even in my vocabulary, so every time I go somewhere I'm always like I have to win.

That's it. That's my mindset, and like I said about the social skills, in America it's so different. You can compliment someone on their shoes, and then you end up doing work together. Yeah, it's mad man. It's so different. Down here you throw a ball at the wall, the ball just hits the floor, but up there it gives you a little bit of a response to you, and like I said you only know when you're doing it. Without experience, you'll just see America and see everything through a screen, and assume it's like this, but really when you're there it's not like that.

Ian Paget: Yeah, so do you want to carry on with your process? You meet the person in person. That involves flying over to LA or wherever it is, and then meeting with the in person. You spoke about these sketches, so what happens after you've presented these sketches? I'm going to link to that video, because that video shows it really nicely, how you're talking to the client.

It looks like you're literally showing everything that you've done and you're talking through your thought process, how you got to certain things, and you're showing rough versions of what they could have, and then if I understand it right, you agree a couple of directions from that.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah.

Ian Paget: And then you come away, and then you vectorised it, put it all together and everything.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah. That's the way it is. It's good to get the client involved and let them, show them your mindset, the way you think and what they're paying for. That's what makes you different, is your perspective, your approach, and when you show the sketches that's what they can see. They can see how you think and they learn more about you as well, so they becomes more of a memorable experience. I think that's what happened with the golfer. They said this comment where, "Ibby met me for a few hours and he made me a design like he's known me for 10 years," do you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's that Beef, the Andrew ‘Beef’ Johnston logo project.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, and that's amazing.

Ian Paget: Yeah, that was really cool.

Ibby Tarafdar: To say a statement like that, if I showed him just the final design I don't think they'll say that. It's because I showed him the process and how I broke down his characteristics, how he is as a person. They were like okay, this guy, he's a thinker, so that was that, and then the whole final presentation it's like I really, again, the BBC show it shows you clearly how I think.

I really consider what the emotions of the client is going through and what they could be feeling at this point when they see this slide, and it's about making the vision become reality and that's what I do.

I make something desirable. I show the hoodies, I show them the caps. That becomes desirable. They want. It's just like the advertisements, when you're walking down the street you see a pair of shoes on a billboard. You want them, but then what if they're there right in front of you and they're gifted to you right there, do you know what I mean? It's like-

Ian Paget: I love that. I've read that type of thing in books. I've seen agencies do that. I don't think I've ever seen a relatively young graphic designer go in and ... First of all, presenting in person the way that you are, I think that's a big thing. I do a lot of stuff online, by email, by Zoom or whatever, and I know a lot of other graphic designers that do that, but you go there in person. You present this story, and then coming in with the actual thing, that is just I love that. I love that you're doing that.

Ibby Tarafdar: Finesse.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's really next level, to actually go out, get these things made up and to actually show them to the client. Literally you can't really say no to it. You just get 100% buy in, and it's beyond just agreeing it and then what next? They're living it and feeling, it and everything. It's really cool that you do that.

Ibby Tarafdar: And it's crazy, because that whole, the golfer situation, imagine, that was all filmed by the BBC live, so I had cameras, spotlights, all this on me at the same time I'm doing a live presentation. There was no rehearsals, none of that. Off the bat man, so for me it was like I said, timing.

I felt I was ready for that moment, because I'd been around the celebrities, I've seen cameras chasing them, I've seen paparazzi chasing them, I've seen fans chasing them. I've been in situations and I've seen how they deal with it, and I felt like I'm ready now for the cameras and spotlights to be on me, and still perform at that level, so that's what we've seen.

Ian Paget: Something I want to add as well. I noticed that you was very yourself. You wasn't trying to pretend to be someone else. You went in with a white t-shirt and jeans. You wore what you would normally.

A lot of people were probably going and getting all dressed up. I think it made you a lot more relatable and you get a lot more trust from the person as well doing that, which it was nice to watch, because I've only ever seen this type of thing from agencies and it was cool to see how you did it.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah man. Obviously your identity is important, and I made sure that when it comes to the plain t-shirt that was important, because I just wanted the work to speak for itself. That's why I don't wear logos and that on my clothing, because I don't want people to look at certain brands and connect me to them, do you know what I mean? I like to wear a lot of plain stuff, because-

Ian Paget: Yeah. I was thinking that you probably specifically pick that. It wasn't just a random choice.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah. Trust me, everything is curated or everything is conscious. Everything is intentional, down to my clothes, down to everything. Every detail. I know how important it is, that's why. I know that every detail matters, and it's funny you picked up on that.

I remember when I'd done a talk in my school, I wore a t-shirt and jeans as well, because I remember as a kid when you're there and you see a guy wearing a suit or a shirt you just can't connect with them, you know? As a youngster.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I know, you can't.

Ibby Tarafdar: I knew that it was my responsibility to just be myself and be relatable, and that's exactly you've seen it, I've seen it as well, so it's nice.

Ian Paget: I did. There's a lot of it you're doing that makes you, I don't know the way to describe it, but you seem like a very ordinary young graphic designer, but then there's a side of what you're doing that's like you're jet-setting, you're hanging out rich and famous and all this sort of stuff, but you seem very grounded, and I love the way that you think and the way that you look at everything.

I think what you're doing is so inspiring and I really can imagine that this episode will probably hit home with a lot of people, and people will get a lot out of it.

Ian Paget: We've been speaking about just over an hour now. We could carry on for ages. There's so much more that we could speak about, but now is probably the best point to wrap it up and I think what I'll do is in maybe a year or two's time we touch base again and we do a followup episode. I think that'd be awesome to do.

Ibby Tarafdar: Yeah, I think we've covered a lot, definitely, and I think a lot of people can do their own research as well, and find out more information. There's a lot going on. People can reach out to me, people can like I said do their research. There's a lot of gems, a lot of things going on, so ...

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely do more podcasts. I can connect you with people as well, if you want, if you want any doors open for you. I'm happy to do that.

Ibby Tarafdar: Cool.

Ian Paget: Thanks so much for coming on Ibby. It's been amazing. It's been a really good chat, so thanks so much for your time.

Ibby Tarafdar: Likewise, man. Thank you for having me.