Don't Let Fear Run Your Design Career

Ian Paget: I read that when you was younger, you aimed to be the best poster designer on the planet. And that was clearly your north star for a long time. How did having a goal like that early on in your career impact your career in life?

James Victore: What I was doing at that time, and I didn't know it at the time, but what I was doing at the time was I was setting a purpose for my life and for my work. And it was something that I would work towards and it wasn't important ... When you have a set purpose, what happens is anything outside of that purpose falls away. So what I did kind of fortunately and unfortunately was I set that as my purpose. And I actually got pretty damn close. I mean, there are other people who are fantastic from my generation and from before, fantastic poster designers and nobody ... It's like being the fastest man on the planet. You're the fastest man on the planet for, like, a week.

But the important thing is that I set a purpose for my work. And I think, when you have a purpose, then your work is driven and your work has meaning and the work just improves. I think what most people don't do is set a purpose. When I was teaching at the School of Visual Arts, I'd say, "What do you guys want? When you get out of school, what do you want?" And they all usually say they'd like a job. And I'm like, "Well, could you be more specific? Because you're going to get a fucking job, but then you're going to be stuck and you're going to hate it."

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's very much the reason why I wanted to ask you the question because I think having that goal early on, whether that was intentional or not, I think it makes a big difference because I've done it myself. I mean, it wasn't intentional at the beginning, but I've read a couple of books that have given a bit more clarity, but I find the moment that you have that clear goal, especially early on, like you said, you can make choices as to whether it's working towards that or not.

I've been surprised with the logo design stuff that I'm doing. A few years back, no one knew me for anything and now I've got to a point where there's a lot of people that know me for logo design. And just the sheer act of really focusing on it, I've been able to improve on it and I can see you did exactly the same thing.

James Victore: Well, here's the funny thing, though. I did exactly the same thing and I had a purpose. And then, at some point, I wanted ... It was probably when I met a girl or wanted to buy an apartment or I wanted this or ... And I started drifting away from my purpose and I drifted towards doing work. And I was starting to take jobs that I shouldn't have taken.

I was still doing very good work, I was still doing great stuff, but I wasn't on my purpose anymore. I was just a designed, a good designer, but I wasn't on my purpose. And what happens is, when you stay on that purpose, especially something like a poster designer and you try to be intelligent about it, what happens is you become like Banksy or Shepard Fairey. But I left my purpose in order to make a better living. And it's taken me a long time to get back to finding my purpose.

Ian Paget: I do think that income is important, though. It's awesome that you did get back on track, but if your north star happens to be something that doesn't yet make money, a lot of us need to make that income or we'll be on the streets. So I would understand why you drifted in that direction, as you needed to. You needed some kind of income.

James Victore: Yeah, but you know what, Ian? Money happens. And if you're really smart, you can figure out how to make money doing pretty much anything. When I was at the School of Visual Arts, I had an assignment that I would give my students and I would pass around a hat. And on the hat were little slips of paper. And a little slip of paper said cupcake or it said used tires or it said meatloaf, whatever. And the assignment was, when everybody got their word, the assignment was, "Okay, come back next week with a list of 50 different ways to make a living with that word."

And what happens is you pick cupcake and the first thing you put down on your list is to sell cupcakes and, okay, that's okay. And then what you do is you say to sell the most amazing bizarro ... cupcakes made with dirt in them or cupcakes that are just for men, that smell like oil or smell like girl, or cupcakes that have scorpions. Right? Or maybe you become the official cupcake critic and you start going everywhere and writing about, blogging about and have a website about and then you go into Europe and you expand to croissant. Basically, all these amazing, bizarre ways to make a living doing one thing.

And what I'm trying to do with the students is trying to get them to understand that, if they hold onto that one thing, they can figure out ... I could've figured out how to make an amazing living career, whatever, out of my purpose, but I chose ... I was in New York and book jackets were easy and record covers were easy and I started doing all this other work and I basically slowly drifted away from posters. I was still known as the poster guy and I still get gigs solely for poster design, which is interesting. But I left that purpose aside to ... because the fear of not making a living with it because I wasn't smart enough, at the time.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think that fear is pretty big. I mean, I've been in that same position, myself, especially if you've got family and you've got a mortgage and stuff that you have to pay for. The way that I've always thought of the best thing to do is to get a job that keeps you going, that brings in some kind of money, but if you do have that north star, that big goal out there, you've still got time in the evenings. You can still work through that.

James Victore: Yes. Sure.

Ian Paget: Fantastic. Another thing that I read in the interviews that you've done, you mentioned, "Do many things well, but let one voice come through." And I think that's relevant to this, as well, because I see that as kind of niching down. And I feel with what you're saying there, that you can actually be a generalist, but from a communication point of view, you communicate that you do this one thing.

I do that with logo design. I kind of shout out of the roof. That's why I have a podcast about logo design, so that people are aware that I can do that, but then I actually do, once someone's got in touch, I can actually do a whole load of other stuff. Is that what you mean by that sentence?

James Victore: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. And I think if you really want to make a living, do one thing well. I mean, that's really just the truth. You don't want to love auto mechanics and motorcycle mechanics and also have a doughnut shop. It just kind of doesn't work well.

For me, it's really hard to do one thing well. I am the classic artist that wants to do everything. I want to write books, I want to make films, I want to do this and that, but one thing that is my saving grace is that I always want to have an opinion. I always want to have who I am show through the work. I want to have my signature on the thing. So I think that is the one thread through all of the work.

Ian Paget: So when you say that, do you mean that you want to have some kind of signature style so that, when people look at your work, they say, "Oh, that's by James Victore," is that what you mean?

James Victore: I don't mean the signature style of the flourish of my left hand. I mean the voice and the opinion, yes, because when I was solely a poster designer the really amazing thing that ... The great opportunity I had a bunch of years ago was I had an exhibition in Switzerland, which is the home of the poster.

So it was kind of a really wild opportunity to have an exhibition in the museums in Zurich. And there was a large opening and all these important designers from around the world were there at the time. And this one Swiss poster designer who I really, really, really looked up to, an older guy, he took me aside. He said, "James, when you lay out all your posters," he says, "what you're struck by is not what they look like, but what they say." And I was like, "Oh, damn. You're saying my posters are ugly." No, no, no.

But I kind of realised that at the time. He helped me tremendously, but I kind of realised that at the time and that has floated me forever. It's all about my voice and it always has been about my voice.

My work has never changed. I mean, I started making posters because I wanted that journalistic aspect. I wanted to use graphic design to have comment on social and cultural and political issues. And I still do. Even in commercial work that I was doing at the time, I was putting in social, cultural, or political commentary.

Ian Paget: When you are creating a poster and you want to communication something that's quite relevant, how are you going about doing that? Are you just going about your daily life and, something that comes up, you're using that as inspiration for a piece?

James Victore: Correct. There are two different ways. That's the best way, is you're out doing yard work and all of a sudden, you're like, "Oh, I've got to say this," something comes up. And the other way is when somebody asks, when somebody says, "Hey, James. Here's a situation. What can you do?" And the first thing I do, Ian, is I go and I sit down and I go, "Okay, what do I have to say?" Not what it would look like.

The next thing is, how do I want to play? Do I want to build a silly little, goofy collage and photograph it? Do I want to do some lettering? Do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? But the first thing I do is I sit down and I ask myself, "What do I have to say?" Because that's the important part.

James Victore: So those are the two ways. The biggest thing is when I'm struck by some situation. As a matter of fact, a funny thing happened last night. I got a newsletter from my kid's school. I've got a two and a half year old and a five year old, so they're not even really in school yet, right? And I get a newsletter from them and the first line of the newsletter was just this fear mongering about COVID.

So I did an Instagram post. It says, "Do not fucking start your newsletter like this." And I quoted them, the first line. I didn't say it was the Montessori School, I didn't say it was blah, blah, blah, but ... And that would be a perfect example of how something just came to me at the time and I had to comment on it. I'm like, "Oh, my god. Stop. You're a god damn fucking Montessori School. You should be taking a higher road than this." So that would be one example of ...

And I didn't have to hand letter it. I didn't have to decorate it. I just had to comment and comment in my own style of writing.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I understand. So with that type of thing, when you say that you need to work out what you want to say, I think that's relatively easy when you want to create something that's ... well, I mean, it's not easy, but you can work that out yourself when you're creating, I guess, a piece of art. How would you go about thinking in that same way with, say, if it was a piece of client work, maybe something a little bit commercial? Would you still approach it with that same methodology that you're trying to work out, first, the what you want to say with that piece?

James Victore: Yes, I don't approach it any differently.

Ian Paget: Okay.

James Victore: Zero. I'm not psychotic like that. There is no different process. The process is always the same. And here it is, Ian. If I do approach it this way and say, "Listen, what do I have to say?" I'm going to put my opinion in it and the client doesn't like it, then they're not my client. They chose the wrong person. The relationship wasn't there. It's all about relationships.

Trust is the lifeblood of my work. If you don't trust me, I can't do good work for you. I don't care how much money you throw at me. If you don't trust me and you don't allow me to do my work or you haven't seen my track record, then we shouldn't work together. So no, I would never alter my voice or my work for a client because that would just be silly. And further than that, it would lead to more of that kind of work and then I've completely screwed the pooch on myself. Right?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

James Victore: Yeah. "Let's hire James. He bends over easily. He will fold on a dime. And then we have the James Victore name and the shitty work that we wanted."

Ian Paget: So when people do work with you, are you quite open about that, that when they do come to you, I guess there's an expectation of the type of thing that you would put together? Do you take briefs? Say, if they gave you a brief, would you take that or does it have to kind of be on your terms?

James Victore: So what I do is, when they send me the brief, I'll read through it ... So I had this big job that I did last year for one of these huge, big, very popular ... I won't even say the name, but a very popular online sales thing. And they gave me the brief and there wasn't a lot of money. It wasn't a ton of money. It was good money, but it wasn't great money. And there was a lot of usages. They give you the usages and where they're going to be and all that. And then they gave me the first round of sketches, the second round of sketches, and that thing. Right?

So I wrote them back and I said, "Hey ..." And I don't know exactly how I worded it, but it was not that dissimilar from what I'm saying now, is I said, "Hey, listen. That's a lot of usages for the amount of money that you're paying. And as far as all the rounds of sketches, I'm going to give you one thing and it'll be great. And if you really don't like it, then we can talk." And they wrote back and they literally said, "Oh, that's right. We forgot how you work," and they doubled the money without me asking.

So the thing is, if you are kind and if you set a role for yourself and if you hold to that and if you don't bend over for everybody who comes through the door, you establish a reputation.

I mean, Ian, I just want to get paid to be James Victore because then I'm allowed to make the best work I can make. Then I'm trusted to work with intelligent clients. When I would talk with students at SVA when I was teaching, I used to give them this kind of a Henry the IV speech almost and say, "Listen, I am trying to preen you for the extremely important opportunity to have contact with the public. You need to be worthy of that. That is an honorous duty. That is an honour to be able to make work and put it out into the world that real people see and I do not want you to take it lightly and I do not want you do feel that you are leaves in the wind. So every time the wind blows, you go over here, or every time a client says something, you change or you crumple." Right?

So for me, that is really important. And whenever I'm working with a new client and it doesn't work out, and this is very, very, very rare, whenever it doesn't work out it's because I haven't set those terms early on. We didn't establish the relationship.

Ian Paget: I can imagine there's a lot of listeners that are thinking, "Wow, that sounds like a dream way to be working," because I know in particular when you start out, I guess it is, if you're chasing the money and you need clients, they're coming in, they come with you for a brief, most of us would take that brief and fulfil it in the way that they feel is appropriate for that. It feels like, I don't know if you was like this at the beginning, but you're at a point where you've established the reputation for being who you are and you're able to pretty much do your own thing with any project that comes your way.

James Victore: Well, now you're using the, "Well, that's good for you because you're James Victore," but I've always done this, ever since the beginning, always, always, always because I love what I do. I like the idea of playing with a subject matter. I like the idea of introducing theological ideas. I like the idea of being an artist in the ointment of being able to play the way I want to play. So it's just a professional habit that I've preened since the beginning. And if there is somebody listening and they're going, "Well, that seems like a hoity toity way to do it," basically, you are coming from a place of fucking fear because you haven't even tried it. Right?

So most people will just assume that it won't work for them and most people will assume that the money won't be there and that all the clients will turn them away, but it's wrong. So you need to establish a level of self-confidence, a level of self-trust, a level of self-love and love of your craft. And you're going to do everything possible to make sure that you are putting out the best work that you can possibly put out and not letting fear run your career.

Ian Paget: I think you're totally right with that and I think ...

James Victore: Don't say but...

Ian Paget: Yeah. I mean, something that's coming to mind is I feel that you need to build up a real reputation for that so that people become familiar with what you do. Do you have any advice for how people can build up that reputation so that they are known for the work that they do and people would approach them in the way that they are for you, for their specific style and type of work?

James Victore: Yeah. No, I think it's developing self-respect. That's all. I think it's just developing self-respect and that takes practice. It doesn't come naturally. It doesn't come naturally to me. That level of confidence doesn't come naturally to me. I'm very sheepish about money, so I have somebody else who does that for me, somebody else who, especially now with what I'm doing now, my renewed purpose, now what we've been doing is going out and teaching and training corporate and going out to these large corporations and being like the creative Moses, setting their creative people free. And that's usually big-ticket stuff. And I'm so happy to do my work and so happy to be involved that I will low ball. So I have somebody else who deals with that for me because it's not easy to do. It's not easy to ...

Creativity and money don't really go well together. Creativity is all about new and all about innovation and all about play. And business is all about tried and true and they want to see it done someplace else first before they do it. So those two kind of rub up against each other.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I know you said about building up self-respect and it's hard, but you've obviously been able to do that. Is there anything specific that you've done or any kind of method that you can think of to help people develop that self-respect so that they do have that confidence to go out there and be themselves?

James Victore: I think it's just practice. I think it comes with being gentle on yourself because it's not always going to work. It doesn't always work. That's fine. It comes with being through practice.

And Ian, I've got a guy who I'm working with right now who ... well, I'm assuming I'm going to be working with him and it's a big-ticket entertainment company and they want me to go to Dallas and work with 100 people. And the guy is pushing really hard. He's just always asking to drop the budget. He wants to be on the phone, six, eight conversations. And here's something that your listeners need to understand. I am this close to firing his ass. I'm like, "You know what? You don't trust me, Bob, so you're gone."

And you have to be able to be that person and you have to understand that, when you do that, what you're doing is you're establishing your self-respect again and you're putting it out into the universe that James Victore respects himself enough that he can walk away from that much money because he doesn't want to have a bridle put in his mouth and be ridden that hard. And what the universe does it it opens up another opportunity for you. I know that, if something walks away from me or if I wisely walk away from something else, that the universe hates a void and that space will be filled.

So that's one thing, too, about firing clients that people don't want to hear about, but it's completely possible. And just because you're a designer doesn't mean you're supposed to work for every client in the world. It's not like you've got this just universal adapter that you fit into any relationship because, again, it goes back to relationships.

So just all this stuff about trying to establish a level of self-respect so, at the end of the day, you feel good because I know there are so many people out there in your audience, Ian, who are working on jobs that don't fulfil them, working on jobs that are like, "Oh, my god. I just want to get this done and get out the door and it keeps coming back with changes," that kind of stuff. And if you've chose to do this as a living, that's a horrible way to work.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. I know I've had a couple of projects ... You know, when I first started doing freelance stuff, I kind of ignored a lot of the stuff that they did in agencies where I worked. So I offered unlimited revisions when I first started, which is, looking back now, it was one of the dumbest things I did, but I had those projects where it dragged on and dragged on.

So what I do now is ... I've actually got in in my contract. So there's only a number of changes that they can have within the project scope. And if they go beyond that, they have to pay more or we end that relationship. So I think you're right. It's important, I guess, even for your mental health and everything. It's just not worth working with some people if it's a horrendous project. And I've had a couple like that, unfortunately, but yeah, now and again, you have to walk away.

James Victore: And don't discount the mental health aspect of it. That's important because what you do is, if you don't do this, is you turn yourself into a slave. You're literally just working for the money. And again, if you chose to be in a creative field and you're just working for the money, that's some fucked up shit right there.

Ian Paget: Do you look at your projects that come to you in any particular way to work out which would be the most fulfilling for you?

James Victore: I don't really have the luxury of picking and choosing. I don't really turn that much down. The things that come to me just kind of seem right. I think there was only project in my career that I turned down that just really didn't feel good and it was a project ... a luxury cosmetics and I did some research and they did a lot of animal testing and I was like, "Eh, I don't think I can do that," so I had to say goodbye.

Ian Paget: Yeah, good. And it's not something I'd want to be involved with either, but I assume everything you do, even for clients, that it aligns with your purpose in some way?

James Victore: Yes. Yeah, anything I've been working on lately, which commercially, I'm not as active as I was before and I'm happy about that because I've always know that, basically, as a designer, as an artist, I'm basically a racehorse and I don't want to pull a cart.

I've had a lot of clients out there who have carts they want to hook me up to and I'm like, "Nah, don't think so." So I'm okay with the amount of work I'm doing right now and the clients that I have now. And my purpose has changed. My purpose isn't to do that work anymore, but it's to help other people do a better job of doing that work.

I work with corporations and they call me when something is going awry. They've moved into a market and it's not going as well or they're having problems with their ... and the employee turnover is high. So they bring me in and, basically, I go and talk to them or I talk to the HR, whoever the real client is, and I say, "Okay, listen. It is not my job to fix your company, but it is my job to go in and teach you how to fix your company."

I'm not a mechanic, corporate mechanic, but what I can do is I can really get people to look inside. I can get people to remember why they got into this field in the first place and to remember the gift that they were born with and I get them to remember that purpose or to open them up that they have a purpose and to basically create excited, driven workforce within a company.

Ian Paget: So there must've been a point in your career where you went from doing a lot of graphic design and artwork and, at some point, you transitioned to doing more of this teaching.

James Victore: Yes.

Ian Paget: How did that happen? How did you go from one thing to the other? How did that transition look?

James Victore: It's funny. Ever since I was a kid, I used to do the Meyers Briggs tests, these aptitude tests. And in the tests, you hit a button, it tells you what your purpose is, right? And I would do these things and I would go, "Come on, fighter pilot. Come of, race car driver." And it would go, "Teacher." Oh!

Ian Paget: Aw.

James Victore: It used to piss me off, Ian, until I realised that teacher doesn't mean I have to be standing in front of a group of 30 19-year-old shitheads whom I know that only three are listening and only one is getting it.

And it was hard for me to kind of wrap my head around ... and get underpaid to boot. So I started teaching at SVA early on in my career. I was really young and I did that because I realised that all the mentors that I had had from poster design taught at some point their career. So I thought, "Okay.

Well, that's important and it seems like giving back, so let's do that." And then, teaching at SVA, I realised that doing a good job teaching was much more about psychology and parenting. And then I had my first child and I realised, "Oh, this really is like parenting."

And all the psychology and sociology and anthropology that took place in teaching, and especially in my class because I never really taught graphic design, I was teaching people how to think and that involves knowing who you are, knowing where you come from.

My students always knew that the best crit or the best answer in a crit always started like this. They'd always say, "When I was a kid, my father would take us to the beach and we'd collect rocks and blah, blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "Oh, my god. That's brilliant. You got me. Keep going, keep going."

So the teaching thing turned into ... at SVA kind of really got me excited about what I could do with that. And then we started throwing our own event and throwing our own workshops and it just kind of turned into ... and now I'm doing the online coaching thing and I really, really enjoy that.

I always get off the phone and go into a really intense conversation with Laura Victore, my partner, because she does coaching, as well, and we get into these really intense conversations and our education just gets ramped up through this thing. So, yeah. The teaching and the coaching thing has replaced the making. And I really like this idea of delving into the creative aspect, the weirdo aspect of who we are and why we were put on this planet. I think it's completely fascinating.

Ian Paget: Well, I think one thing I'm interested in from what you said then is, in terms of teaching, you're not teaching graphic design. You're teaching how to think. How do you do that? How do you teach someone how to think?

James Victore: I tell people, especially ... it's so prevalent because we do three, four-day workshops and it's so prevalent there because people come to me because I have that reputation and they want to be freed up and they want to play and they want to be better designers. And when they get there, they realise after spending some time with me that, in order to be a better creator, in order to be a better contributor, you have to choose to be a better human being.

You have to choose to be more brave. You have to choose to be more vulnerable. You have to choose to be more authentic and put more of your voice in your work. You have to choose to accept risks and you have to choose to understand why your self-deprecating humour is holding you back or to understand your lack of self-worth and why that's financially holding you back or creatively holding you back because there's so many fears that we have that basically stop us. And you and I have talked about one or two of them already. What stop us from really contributing in a powerful way that we can.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, I know a big thing with there in particular, I know we haven't spoken much prior to doing this interview, but I went full time with my business only three or four weeks ago. And that's been on the back of my mind for years. I've been working for an agency for the last 10 years. And plucking out the courage to take that leap, that was hard. That took a lot of push and I think ...

James Victore: You should've talked to me, man.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I should've done ... but, yeah. I think fear can really, really hold people back.

James Victore: Oh, man. But Ian, the important thing is understanding where that fear comes from and why it's there. And your fear, in your case, it's completely obvious your fear kept you comfortable. You had a gig.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I did. Yeah.

James Victore: You should've been fired. That would've been wonderful for you. Most people are like, "Oh, no. I've been made redundant." And I'm like, "Well, congratulations. Let's talk. Let's talk about your future. Let's make that thing happen now."

I've got people who I'm coaching just because of this COVID stuff, they both lost their jobs and I'm like, "This is a gift. Let's talk. Come on. Now is not the time to cower and to flood your body with all those negative thoughts that are going to create negative energies and let loose all the adrenaline and all the bad shit into your body. Now is not the time for that. Now is the time to ... That's reacting. We want to response. That's the difference. Respond intuitively and intellectually and make choices that feel good in our body.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I find it quite funny because, prior to actually handing in my notice, I think I had a conversation with Scotty Russell. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but literally on the day that I spoke to him, he just lost his job. He got made redundant. And he'd been building this thing on the side for a long time in the same way that I had done.

And I said to him, "Oh, this is awesome news. Now you've got all this time to focus on the thing that you've been doing." And that was actually one of the things that made me click, is like, oh, you know what? I'm actually giving him the advice that I probably need. But you're right. Fear can make ...

James Victore: Well, that's exactly it. You can totally do that. It is easier to ... There's a little parable of this young student who's trying to trip up his sensei and he catches him when he's out on his walk. And he walks up to his master and he says, "Master, tell me, what's the hardest thing in life?" And the master, without thinking, says, "To know thyself."

And the student is like, "Oh, shit. That's a good answer. Shit." And he goes back and he thinks all through the night and he catches up with him the next day on the walk and he says, "Master, tell me, what's the easiest thing in life?" And the master, without thinking, says, "To advise others." You can totally tell somebody else what to do, but you can't fucking do it.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. I think it's because you picture all of the barriers rather than looking at the potential. And I think those barriers always have more weight in your head. In my case, it's things like I've got a mortgage to pay. Will I actually make enough money? I'm losing this security, this safety net, all that sort of stuff. And I think that holds a lot more weight than actually all the in-the-sky stuff that is actually true.

James Victore: Truly, exactly.

Ian Paget: If you do have all that, yeah.

James Victore: And if we were talking in that situation, I would turn those fears into, "Hey, so when exactly, Ian, are you going to start trusting yourself? When are you actually going to trust your gift or trust this tool that you have? Because if you don't, you're fucking lying to people. You can't continue to work because you're lying to people because you're not backing it up. You're not taking that risk. Right? But yet, you're telling other people to, so you're kind of full of bullshit."

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. No, it's totally true because ...

James Victore: Yeah, it's totally true. James Victore said it.

Ian Paget: I want to talk about one of your ethos that I read. You say, "Your work is a gift." And I love this, but I'd love to hear a little bit more from you to expand on this. So what do you mean by, "Your work is a gift?"

James Victore: What I mean by that ... And I made a really delightful little film. It's on my Instagram. You have to scroll back a couple of weeks because I did it awhile ago. And it's also one of the core themes of my book, Feck Perfuction. Oh, which we're not talking about, by the way. Hey, you've got to ask me about my book.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. We should mention that. I'll put a link in the show notes for your book.

James Victore: But, yeah. So your work is a gift. And this was an idea that I was made privy to a bunch of years ago where ... And it's not relegated only to the creative sect or designers because it's really anybody because everybody's work can be a gift and it's basically the attitude and perspective that you give to it.

And if you understand ... And the way I say this, I said this is a truly dangerous idea because, when you understand that your work is a gift, it means you no longer work for a client or a boss. You work understanding that there's a deserving public out there, so it changes how you work. It changes who you work for and it changes why you work because, when your work is a gift, you understand that what you're giving to people is a part of yourself and that has value.

So even if you're a bus driver, your work can be a gift. A bus driver can change somebody's day by smiling or by a small act of kindness. Right? Your work can be a gift to others. And I think that's hard for people to understand because they're like, "But I have this job and I'm making money." I'm like, "Well, you can stay in that mindset. That's okay, but if you want to come up to the next level, talk to me."

Ian Paget: Yeah. But the thing is, I think with that, thinking in that way, as well, it helps you to raise the bar because if you look at your work and think to yourself, "Is this good enough to be a gift to the world, this client?" And I think that pushes you to higher levels.

James Victore: I hope so. And to take it back a little bit further, I remember a bunch of years ago, a billion years ago, I was a book jacket designer working out of this tiny studio, doing my own work, but working out of this tiny studio.

And one of the other designers there said, "James, when you send in work to a client," she said, "are you ever afraid they're not going to accept it?" And I kind of was taken aback. I was like, "Um, every time. Every time," because if I'm not pushing myself creatively and I'm not pushing my client, then I'm not doing my job. If my work seeks to appeal to everybody, then I'm just a people pleaser. So my work is certainly not a gift. My work is a joke that everybody knows the punchline to. You know?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

James Victore: So, yes. Your work is a gift. And like I said, it may change who you work for. So I had this opportunity a bunch of years ago with Converse sneakers. They asked me to come and be their keynote speak for their big annual corporate meeting. And they invited me to Boston and they had a big, huge check waiting for me and it was a run through.

And the theme of the thing was unleashing creativity. Right? And they invited me to come and do the thing and, the evening before, I had to run through all my slides and they ... I was doing the keynote, which I think I was given 20 minutes, so I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to run through the whole thing. Let me just run through my slides. Here's where I talk about your work is a gift. Here's where I talk about all these big ideas."

And at the end, our creative director came up and said, "Hey, the CEO wants to have a word with you." I'm like, "Uh, okay." So here, I'm sitting in this dark auditorium, the only person there and I feel like I'm in detention.

And the CFO and the COO and the creative director come up and they're like, "Hey, James. We really feel that this isn't the right talk for our people." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no. A week ago I had 200 people at the New York Times Center and it was just me all day and I was getting them supercharged about what they do for a living in there at their jobs."

They're like, "No, no. That's okay. We understand," but they handed me the check for 15 grand and they said goodbye. So they paid me not to speak and I was like ...

Ian Paget: What?

James Victore: Yeah, yeah. Because the thing was they were afraid that some of their people would not show up at work the next day after hearing me because I had set them free. And my idea is, well, those people shouldn't work for you, should they? Because they're not happy. Why would you want unhappy people? If you need just warm bodies, you should just have warm bodies. I don't understand. So that would be better for everybody.

Why would you want people there who don't want to be there? So your work is a gift is a really dangerous idea because it means that somebody might wake up and go, "Oh, shit. I shouldn't be sitting ... You did it, you did it, you did it. You woke up and said, 'Oh, I shouldn't be sitting in this chair. I have a gift and I need to share it with the world. I have a song left to sing in me and I want to take that opportunity.'"

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think, as well, when you do work for yourself and you do your own thing, you become known for that, as well. I mean, one thing that I was always ... what I've been drawn to for years is these big names that have done something.

So I went to a Paul Rand exhibition and I'm looking at it, start thinking, if he worked for another company, no one would know who Paul Rand is. No one would know ... There's so many big names out there, big name graphic designers. If they hadn't done their own thing and treated themselves with more respect and given their work as a gift to the world and everything that you've been saying, no one would know who they are.

James Victore: And not everybody has to be a superstar designer, but everybody would like to be happy and that's the goal there. That's the goal.

Ian Paget: Yeah, very fulfilling.

James Victore: We throw workshops at the ranch here in Texas and we had some people come who worked for an insurance company. And they lived in a town where, basically, everybody worked for that insurance company.

So it was really old-school, like, you work for us or you don't work. Right? And they weren't particularly happy there, creatively. And they would talk about kind of the in-house ... the atmosphere and the back talking and all the kind of ... what happens when you work in-house at a place ...

Ian Paget: Yeah, I know that.

James Victore: ... for so long. Right? So it was my job to understand that they can't leave, that both the husband and the wife were working at the same place. They can't leave, but they can be happy there. They can find a way to have a voice and to feel confident in using that voice at work and maybe inspiring others at the same time. You know? And they work there now, work there still and I'm in touch with them and they're completely happy and they get paid really well. So that was the other thing. They just felt like they had the golden handcuffs. Right?

Ian Paget: Yeah.

James Victore: I was able to, with an attitude adjustment and a perspective shift, to get them to understand how their work was a gift and how their work can affect their lives and affect other people. So it's completely possible, but most of the time we just kind of shrug and go, "Oh, well. I guess I'm here. Not happy, but I'm working." It's like being in a bad relationship. "Well, I'd rather be in a bad relationship than single." You know?

Ian Paget: I think we all need a poster with that. I don't know if you've done one already, but yeah, we need a poster with, "Your work is a gift," in the office, just to remind yourself that each project that you take on you should consider as a gift to the client and the world.

And every project that you work on, you should keep pushing it to be that standard where it can be a gift and it's not just a piece of design. It's actually something that's worth of calling a gift. So I think if you don't already have a poster, James, you should create one because I think it would help inspire people to do their best work and to have more self-respect and all that sort of stuff. I think that kind of represents everything about you.

James Victore: Self-respect and happiness would be awesome.

Ian Paget: Yes, definitely.

James Victore: If you were to ask me, "James, if there was one thing you could get rid of in your life or in anybody's life, what would it be?" And I'm like, "Self-doubt, always. Self-doubt." Get rid of doubt.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think that's a massive thing and I know, personally, myself, it's taken a long time to become confident enough in myself to put my voice out there and to stand up on my own and do my own thing and work towards doing the most fulfilling work. So I know, myself, it's possible. It just takes some time and it's good to know that it is possible and it's something that you can work towards.

James Victore: Mm-hmm (affirmative). If you're willing to, yes. If you're willing to face those demons because what we're talking about is something I talk to coaching clients all the time about is self-love. And the reason we are not familiar with that term in our lives is because, in order to understand self-love, we have to be curious about the opposite, which is our self-hate, which is where our lack of self-esteem comes from, where our doubt comes from, where our fears come from, where our lack of self-worth comes from. And people don't want to go there.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, yeah. I know, myself, it's hard. You know, this podcast, one of the main reasons why I started it originally was to actually help with social anxiety after having some therapy. So I know, myself, it's tough. You have to push yourself through so many barriers.

It's kind of like trying to run at a brick wall and making yourself think, "I'm going to hit through that wall." You're going to hit that wall, but if you keep running at it, you're going to eventually break through it. And that's what it's like to do a lot of these things, but it is definitely possible if you really want to make it happen and I think that's the key thing. You have to want it enough to push through those brick walls so that you do come out the other side.

James Victore: But with my teaching and coaching style, I try to get people to understand that the wall isn't even there. It was never there. It's just in your imagination. It's not there, so just walk.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's true. It is there, but with something like anxiety, it feels like it's there, like it is actually ... but you are right. In reality, it's not there and you can kind of just walk through it because it's an invisible wall that was never there in the first place.

James Victore: Or you put it up.

Ian Paget: Yes.

James Victore: That's the thing. Nobody put it up. You put it up, so you can take it down.

Ian Paget: Yeah, true. The brick walls I had, I definitely put them up and they were all in my head. So it was down to me to break through them. No one else could do that.

James Victore: Yep.

Ian Paget: Now, we're nearly at an hour. So I'm going to ask you one last question. So there's the saying, "If you don't ask, you don't get." And I heard that you say to ask for more.

James Victore: Yes.

Ian Paget: Can you give an example of when that's worked for you?

James Victore: It always works.

Ian Paget: Always.

James Victore: Ask for more time, ask for more money, ask for more creativity, ask for more love. Yeah, it always works.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So just in general, you're just asking for more.

James Victore: Yeah, yeah.

Ian Paget: Yeah?

James Victore: And it's not out of any kind of greed or any kind of avarice. It's just a professional ... I mean, if we're talking about the professional aspect of it, it's just a professional habit that I've created.

Like, when my client comes to me and they write me or whatever and they say, "And here's the budget," I just find interesting ways to get back to them and I ask, "Well, how flexible is your budget? It gymnast flexible or weight lifter flexible?" You know? And they're like, "Oh, that's funny. Okay. We could probably do this much more." You know? And that's without being really tactical about it. You know?

But there are always practical and creative ways to ask for more, ask for more money and ask for more time. And I always say, in my book, I think the line says about asking for more, I said, "If you want a pony, ask for a unicorn."

Ian Paget: Well, James, I think you've dropped a lot of bombshells in this, lots of real ...

James Victore: Boom.

Ian Paget: ... inspiration, real eye-opening stuff. So I hope it's really inspired listeners. And if people are keen to learn more from you, like you said, you've got your books, you've got your consultation your YouTube channel. Yeah, you've got loads of stuff out there. So if anyone's not already familiar with James, definitely go and check out his stuff because, as you can tell just from this 55-minute chat, I hope, has been really inspiring for listeners. So James, thank so much for coming on.

James Victore: Yep, and a pleasure chatting with you, man.