Designing the Joker Logo

Ian Paget: So I'm really keen to talk about the Joker logo, because that's probably the one piece of your work that I really know. But, something I'm keen to do with this podcast is, basically find out how different people make a living creating logos. And it seems like you have quite a different story to a lot of people. I understand, at the time of creating the Joker logo that you was working at an agency called Elastic, is that right? Elastic?

Chad Danieley: Correct. Yes, freelancing. Yeah.

Ian Paget: So can we talk about everything that happened prior to that? So like how you got into graphic design at the start?

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It almost kind of is how I got to where I am, because when I was like around 16, I was into really just like metal music and extreme sound stuff, you know? And I would just found myself hanging out at the local fanzine, like free music magazine that covered music because I wanted free CDs and stuff. If you did reviews, you could get the free stuff.

And then eventually I realised, oh wait, I can do my own fanzine. I had like a Xerox machine and wax machine and stuff, so that you could do paste up just like kind of the old way. And I just fell in love with kind of the, just the process of touching, actual physical touching things.

And that kind of translated, and then eventually around 18... probably about 20, I went to ArtCenter and I kind of dragged that sort of mentality with me, like to be tangible. But I also really love technology. But it's just the hand feel of something, the way it... I don't know. Just how it's messed up, how an edge or something is kind of wonky or something. I don't know, it feels more human. It connects like on a level of... I connect to flaws or something that's different.

So eventually, then I made it to ArtCenter. That was around '98. And that's where I found letterpress there, they had a studio. I don't know. For someone who's like me who's into technology... Really, I had a computer since I was, it's like 19... I had the first Mac, my dad bought it and was like, "I don't know how to use this. You figure it out." And I was heavily into the first wave of technology and how we can manipulate it and have fun with it. Photoshop 2.9, I think, or 3.0. Everyone was excited because you could have two layers.

So when I went to ArtCenter, the letterpress studio was kind of like the place I could just go and just experiment. It slows me down, too, which is what I kind of sometimes need. Like playing with the shapes, the form of letters in their physical form. I don't know, they help the creative process. Like when you can slow something down and not do 10,000 versions of something, it kind of makes you... Because I can get over my heels and kind of just start to like, dah, dah, dah. just do way too much where you're like, whoa, whoa, bring it back and slow down, mellow.

So I had to devise a really large metal object, like the letterpress machine, to put in my way to slow me down and kind of just see what happens with them. Also just, there's historical elements about it, but I don't get too much into that. And then from there, I started freelancing around various places, for like Nokia and MTV, VH1 that stuff. And then landed at NBC for... That was the only full-time job I've ever had. When I said full-time, just like a staff. I was at NBC, and I think I realised that after... I was there for 10 years. And that was too long for me. Not in a bad way, I just, I realised-

Ian Paget: Well, yeah, 10 years is a long time, I know. The last company that I worked at, I was there 11 years. And you go through a lot in that time. So I understand that. Too long.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. It was also, it's where I learned... The things about freelance was that, you're constantly changing topics and it helps with the... Because you're like always doing for another client, another client, another client. Whereas when I was working in-house, at a shop, it was just that product. NBC, everything was NBC branded and it was kind of getting monotonous and boring because you like... So it's fun to freelance because you could just be like, "Oh, here, you're doing this project or this project or this project". And you're switching a couple times a day just doing different topics. I don't know. It kind of cross pollinates my brain to get excited about stuff and stay excited about things.

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Chad Danieley: And that made me realise, no, you're freelance. That's, I get the best results, I think.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. And I find it really interesting hearing you talk about your work, especially when anytime you mention anything about letterpress, I can feel there's a lot of passion there. And you like the whole analog aspect of it, which is really interesting. But I just wanted to ask, so at that role that you got with Elastic, you were doing animation?

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: So how did that side of it come on board? Because it seems like you had a real passion for letterpress, but ended up working as an animator?

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: So how did you get into the animation side of things?

Chad Danieley: Yeah, because whenever I was at ArtCenter, that was like the first class where you could do motion design. And again, my love for music was always like, it's always there. Like I still, you know? And so I was like, oh, putting graphics to sound. And that was really exciting to me. So I kind of just, I just hung out with a lot of the animation people in the lab and it was... It's something that you can do as a constant. Like everyone needs promos, everyone needs whatever they're working on.

I don't know. I don't know why I like animation, it's just fun. And it also gives me... When I'm freelancing, you get booked, say, as an animator, and then those are usually a lot longer jobs, like a month or two or three. And when there's downtime, which is how the Joker happened, they're just like, "Hey, you want to work on stuff? Here you go." And I can always just... It's always about just kind of just keeping the energy, creativity, kind of the neurons going, you know, and stuff.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So am I understanding why, it was basically, primarily you was there to do animation, but from time to time, because you have the skillset, they'd give you the occasional graphic design job?

Chad Danieley: Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's like, "Oh, downtime. Cool. Hey, Chad. We got this thing and this logo type project," and I'm like, "Oh, cool," because I can just do a bunch of versions for them and put them out into the deck. And so, yeah, that's that.

Ian Paget: Okay. So I want to focus on the Joker logo and we'll see where this conversation goes. But I find it really strange, right? You're hired as a freelance animator for the company and the company get... I think, it sounds like a big client. It might not be for them, but to me, to get a project like the Joker film, that seems like a huge deal. And I don't know how many graphic designers they have within the company, but it seems really unusual to give that to the animation guy that does logos now and again. So how did that happen? Was it just you working on it or was it a whole load of people that ended up working on that project? And because it was quiet for you, you ended up working on it as well?

Chad Danieley: I think there was only like three, three or four people working on it.

Ian Paget: Sure.

Chad Danieley: At the time, it wasn't definitely as big as it became. But they just needed versions of logos, you know? It was, "He's got downtime, so..." But sometimes, I do get called just for that as well, just doing logos and stuff.

Ian Paget: So we know that you're at the agency. We know that you occasionally do logos. There's three graphic designers in the company. How did a small agency like that manage to get that project as a client? Do you know the story behind that at all?

Chad Danieley: Well, that's also what I really like about studios, like Elastic, where they have like three or four divisions. Elastic is mostly like animation graphics for commercials, film, stuff like that. Then they have a52 which is their colour department, so they do colorising and framework. So for a lot of features and stuff, they'll actually do colorising. And then they have their trailer department called Jax, which is, they cut trailers. And so within the same compound are these three studios, under the same tent. So I really like that where people... It has a, I don't want to say a hippy compound, but kind of like, this place is just filled with creative people.

And so you have Jax downstairs who was like, "Oh, we've got this Joker trailer." They're really good at editorial. Really, really good. That's their thing, is how to... So they get the footage of Joker and we're cutting it together. And they kind of... Not that graphics are, I don't want to say secondary to them, but it's they're good at editing and making a really great trailer. That trailer was amazing.

And then, they were like, "Oh, we need some type and logos for some cards," for your idea. So we came and watched a very rough edit. I actually didn't... I only got like five minutes scene. It wasn't even in full. It was just kind of like, "Here's what it kind of looks like." And so we at the compound, people are like, oh... There's a very cross pollination going on. Like you have the editors, and you have the people who shoot film, and then graphic designers and animators upstairs. So it creates this cool synergy kind of thing.

And so when they hit up for the Joker, it was originally just like internal. And once they showed Todd, the director, I guess he was like, "Nope, that's the logo." That's how it's to be.

Ian Paget: Oh, wow. So in reality, the agency wasn't actually hired to create the logo slash identity for the film. It was just-

Chad Danieley: The trailer.

Ian Paget: ... primarily the trailer. And you guys were creating... Am I understanding it? It sounds like you was just doing something as a placeholder, maybe. Is that right?

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Sure. No, there's nothing wrong with placeholders.

Ian Paget: That's crazy.

Chad Danieley: Yeah, so that's why it's really interesting to work at places like Elastic or there's several other studios that do that, where there are different departments that they're really good at and they're like, "Hey, man, can we get some logos and some stuff to make our trailer?" So when they present it, it looks full and complete. And then we just showed them and then... They put them in the trailer and once Todd saw it, he was like, "No, that's it. Don't touch anything. That's the finished logo."

So yeah, until the trailer was released, I didn't... Not that I didn't believe, like in a sense I've got, you know? But things in Hollywood are constantly updating every second. So it's like, they're like, "Oh, they chose your logo." I thought, "Oh, that's cool." Like, it would probably change. I thought, until it came out and I was like, "It did not change."

Ian Paget: That's probably, yeah, really good for your career, right?

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I did an episode, it was probably about a year ago now with one of the Pentagram partners, Emily Oberman, and she's kind of... Their team specialise in this kind of thing, you know, film, movie branding. And there's a whole process to it. But this is really surprising, I wouldn't have thought that a project like this would've come up where you're just... It's not even like your main job. You're given this awesome project. You think it's just temporarily going to be used, and then you see it on the big screen eventually. That must be mind blowing, right?

Chad Danieley: Very. Yeah. It was really cool. Yeah, that was really cool to see the type really big on screen. That was crazy to see the trailer. I was like, "Oh, that's so rad." It was very exciting.

Ian Paget: Cool. Okay. So I think we should go into the nitty gritty details of creating this. So you've been given this project, sounds like a number of people are working on it. What did the process look like? Am I understanding right? You watched the trailer, create some stuff, you all sat down and just started or was there more to it than that?

Chad Danieley: There was actually very... Like I said, there was very little information. And I do honestly believe that's actually a good thing. I want to say that in quotes, sometimes. Because, say like logos per se, corporate logos, they're very worked over, very methodical and it's very structural.

And so whenever it comes to entertainment stuff, I found, like it's... Well, they definitely don't mind and they actually probably prefer stuff that's a little messed up looking, little like rough. And they're usually just type treatments. With a lot of entertainment logos, it's more about how does something feel, which is sometimes in corporate logos, sometimes it felt kind of frowned upon the way my process, which is how does something feel. Like I'm very, how to communicate something without it being like obvious or sort of very worked over?

It's kind of something... I really like the Japanese wabi-sabi methodology where something is... so in the entertainment industry, it allows a lot more room for kind of just emotional expression over, say, doing a brand guideline about how a proper something logos should... The size, the everything. It's more, does it feel right? And so I find the difference between the two really interesting. So the entertainment industry is definitely better for experimentation, open for more sort of... Because it's only there for what, you know, six months or a year.

Ian Paget: Well, yeah. It doesn't need to be timeless.

Chad Danieley: Correct.

Ian Paget: It doesn't have the constraints of needing to be versatile. You know it's going to be either really big on posters or really big on the screen. And you can use current trends because the film is generally of the moment anyway, so if it ends up looking of that generation, it doesn't matter. An '80s film, is it always going to be an '80s film? And you kind of want it to look that way. So yeah, you're right, it just doesn't have the constraints or anything like that when working on a project like this.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. So I think I'm better in that area of little emotional expression in it, and noisy, and does it feel the way it's supposed to be?

Ian Paget: Yeah. I did read that you did like 16 different logos. You probably had more ideas than that.

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: So I'm guessing you were sat at your computer, right? So how did the whole letterpress thing come up? Was you doing that elsewhere or does the agency happen to have a letterpress in their studio?

Chad Danieley: No. No. That stuff, I bring just from my own, from home. It kind of stemmed from how I work with it when I'm printing. So what I'll do is just, I'll do type sheets that are just specimen sheets of the actual thing and just scan them in and then upload them into Dropbox. But how the process in the... That morning was like, they were kind of like, "Well, we don't know much about it. Here's like five, 10 minutes of some stuff. It's more contemporary. They didn't want anything jokey, like in the sense of like, kind of the '60s."

Ian Paget: Yeah. Like all the comic book stuff.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. They didn't want that whimsical, fun type because naturally that's where we would go. You're kind of like, "Let's do whimsical and fun."

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Chad Danieley: And that's really fun, but it's saying something completely different. And so that was kind of their only kind of thing, it was like, "Let's not go into the jokey area." And that's literally it. But I actually enjoy that, that whatever. Sometimes I get panic attacks about it, but also at the same time it's like, well, no one really knows. It's like, okay, cool. So we're just going to go into the sandbox and play.

And so, I think I was just like, oh, I got some stuff in my Dropbox from letterpress, pull it down. And I just call them like, I like saying it like they're kind of like type cardio experiments, where I just like really quick cardio, kind of... And so just to get myself going, I'll just start playing with type. Like kind of how I would on the press, where you just start... so I like cutting them up and bringing them in, overlaying.

And that was the first one I did, which is just so funny. It sounds like some sort of... like terrible from, you know? Oh, it was the first one and you should... I didn't have to go any further, but I just kind of put it, I put it away. I was doing that. I was like, "Cool." That was basically my coffee, was to play with the type. I couldn't change the form. I try not to change the form too much with my letterpress stuff, meaning I don't cut elements out. I just kind of like leave them kind of just there as they are. So I'd play with them, see what shapes I really... what fit together, you know? And just do a bunch of those.

And then I put that in my folder to share. And then later, I spent another two days on just doing traditional vector stuff. They weren't that good. They were okay. And just the vector ones, I think I led with more in the vector stuff and then followed with just sort of putting in the letterpress stuff at the very end. And they were just like, "Nope, that's it, let's do that." It's like, "Awesome." And then I had to quickly, like, "Do I have a full type character set?" You know, making sure I had all those elements.

So basically it was like just playing with type. Like, I just enjoy playing with type. It's like a, you know, if you do... Crazy exercise people, they do their cardio. I'm doing my like, "Hey, where does H fit into this I? And I can put these things." It just feels, it's fun to see what shape is being made. Third shape, second, third shape within the form when you pull back. Oh, what about over here? So I kind of stopped seeing the shape as letters. More just kind of like, just structure. And so I started playing with those.

But the letterpress, I mean the traditional vector stuff was... they were fine. They're pretty safe actually. And everyone kind of did... we all kind of did very similar things. Since we didn't have a lot to go on, I think a lot of the other stuff that I had done was kind of on the conservative side. I can send you some stuff.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah. If you are able to share it, I'd pop it in the show notes, if you're allowed to.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Paget: I'd love to see that. Yeah. If you can follow up after this conversation and send it over, I'll put a link in the show notes because I'd love to see that different versions. If you're allowed to share it, anyway, because it'd be interesting to see like different directions you took it and to compare and-

Chad Danieley: It's like, oh... Hopefully the first thought is, "Oh, I can do that too."

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Chad Danieley: And I think... Exactly. Definitely.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's one of the reasons why I've been enjoying doing this podcast, is because even when you speak to like the most famous people or the people that have worked on the biggest projects, actually it's all very relatable. And to be honest, anyone that has some element of creative talent, they can do any of these projects, it's just more about being in the right place at the right time. Especially with this project.

This feels so random, that you're an animator. When you got some down time... Like if you was busy doing animation at that time, you wouldn't have got involved in this project. So the odds of you getting this project are so slim, it's mind blowing. And you would probably have to tell the story over and over and over again, because I think the Joker will go down as a cult classic. And you'll probably be asked about it in 20, 30 years time, just because I feel there's something about the logo for the film that seems very iconic and you probably didn't even realise it at the time.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. And I honestly, I kind of feel like I can fan out and geek out with people on it too, because there's a part about it, that I really enjoy about letterpress is, I step aside and I kind of let the letters kind of do the work. So in a way, I can be... It's funny. I can be a fan, because I don't necessarily... It's not that I don't think it's me, but it's kind of like, "This is beautiful too."

Ian Paget: Well, you didn't know how it was going to come out.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Yeah. So it was an element of, I can kind of stand back and kind of be like... I'm a fan of that printed typeface too. So whenever it comes to normal fonts or something, it's like, if you were to make you... if you order a logo that you were like... It's hard to step aside and see objectively. But with my letterpress work, I feel I can step aside and kind of be a fan because I kind of feel like it's not fully 100% me. There's something happening between the machine and the letters that I could be like, "I know. It's magic, huh? I don't know what to say." It's pretty...

Yeah, there's a fan in this too that I can enjoy as objectively. Because that's really hard for, a lot of times when I make logos is to be objective. We always bring so much of the dark negative thoughts about, "Oh, you suck," or you this or that.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah. I do that all of the time. Like, I think every single time I send a presentation to a client, I am just waiting for them to say, "We hate this."

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I said this before in the podcast, you know, sometimes that does happen, but it's very unlikely. Most of the time, they do absolutely love it. But, yeah, I think all graphic designers have this element of doubt and uncertainty. And yeah, it's an interesting one.

Chad Danieley: That voice, I've had a long relationship with him. I actually try not to pay it much attention.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, when you know it's right and when you know it's good. You're aware of that, so why do you have these doubts anyway? Yeah, you do have to switch it off sometimes.

Chad Danieley: It really hasn't... Hopefully, for a lot of people... That voice, that negative voice has never really done you any good. It just kind of stops you from releasing things. Because you're like... I'll make stuff and then never release it because I'll tell myself it sucks. But no one ever saw it. How do we know? And so I had to always just like kind of just squash that voice. And I have to actively do it. And still to this day, it doesn't come natural to squash that voice down of self-doubt and all that stuff. I'm sure there's a purpose, but I think it's kind of maybe stays around too long.

Ian Paget: Well, yeah. I think as graphic designers, if you was always happy and always confident about what you are doing, you would never improve.

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Because you need that seed of doubt that what you're doing isn't good enough. And that's there and it drives you to keep learning, keeps driving you to master your craft. And I think if people didn't have that, they wouldn't be good graphic designers because you wouldn't have the drive that you need to get really good.

I don't know if every single person in the entire world has this, they probably do. But I think it's graphic designers all have it because we have this drive to get better. And it unfortunately means that we would probably be never happy with our work.

Chad Danieley: Which is actually really important to get comfortable with. Because I've realised, I've never really liked... When I say like, you know, it's sort of like love something I've ever done, because you'll always see the issue. So I just go like, "That's cool." The Joker logo is one of the first ones where I've been able to be like, "Oh. Yeah. I'm really okay with that." Like, it feels good. It's kind of therapy, "Yeah. That works. Yeah."

Ian Paget: Is that because it was made with letterpress and you feel like you didn't create it?

Chad Danieley: Yeah, in a way. I think so. Yeah.

Ian Paget: That's bizarre.

Chad Danieley: Yeah, I have a sort of process. I try to separate... Yeah, I create just like a separation between... so I can actually be a fan of it.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. That's understandable. So going back to the process. Okay, so you made it sound simple. Like you just opened up your illustrator, you grabbed these amazing letters.

Chad Danieley: Yep.

Ian Paget: Okay. So there's more to this. So I assume at home you have a letterpress and all the equipment, machine, whatever. Are you pressing these and scanning things constantly to create a database of letters and images and stuff?

Chad Danieley: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I definitely have my... yeah, usually whenever I get a new type specimen, I'll just... You find them, eBay or friends that's giving you a set. So I'll just bring them in. So I just kind of have a process where I'll first identify them and then just lay them out, print them in various different states. Like, this is where you can get... this is where traditional letterpress people and me kind of... Our past kind of separate.

Ian Paget: Well, I don't know anything about it. So keep going. I'm really curious.

Chad Danieley: Oh, no. I'm not as people would, "They're fine in letterpress printer." Like, "They're fine printer." Like, oh my god, I'm definitely not fine, like stuff like that. So I'll bring them in and I'll set them out on the press and just sort of like treat them in different ways, different states of noise or texture. And whenever you roll your paper over, it just picks up so much noise or different things. Anything of the face in letterpress, any dent, indentations or noise it's amplified. Like on the K in Joker, like I never saw that gash whenever I was printing it originally. I didn't see it until I scanned it. And now I can see it whenever I do look at the actual forms. There's usually if you just rub anything across the top of the letters, you can damage them, which I usually love.

Ian Paget: You mean that K, it looks like it's so intentional because it looks like someone's been violent, and that slash in that K is what does it. And it's only in that K. And it looks like you put a lot of thought into that, but in reality, it was just there and it was just the byproduct of a dent.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was another K in the set, but it just didn't look as good, so I stayed with that one. Again, yes, whenever you... Someone brought up but I think that's cool, that someone was like, "Oh, it looks like the gunshot from the movie."

Ian Paget: It does, yeah.

Chad Danieley: And what's funny is like, I hadn't seen that part of the movie, so it wasn't there. But at the same time, because I'm not trying to like, "Oh, it had no meaning." Mostly, to me, I felt it was like more about scarification of sort of a soul or someone's darkness.

And I had it on the scarification, but I hadn't seen the part with the guns and stuff in it, so I didn't know he shot someone. So that was there. I felt it wasn't exactly that, but it was more about just how what a scarred human being and kind of a scarification of his like person was like really, really emotional out there. And so I thought, yeah, I'll keep it there. Just keep all of the flaws, kind of again, I always come back to wabi-sabi where you appreciate and give reverence to sort of that which is just is, and sort of flawed. And I felt that it felt correct whenever I saw it. And so whenever I'll bring in new type, I'll do different press runs with it to see and look at it and stuff.

And then I'll just bring them home. Because that's how I usually start a printing run. First, I'll just do some normal, which is like doing type specimens, like the Joker stuff. So I have drawers and drawers and drawers of different type that I have. And then, later in the day of printing, I'll start to do my experiments. Then I put it out on Instagram, just sort of reprinting on top of things. And that's kind of like where I get to see things happen. And then I go home and scan stuff.

Ian Paget: So, okay.

Chad Danieley: But did that explain... Was there anything about letterpress you want to know?

Ian Paget: Totally did. I just have way more questions.

Chad Danieley: Oh, yeah. Great.

Ian Paget: Right. Lots of different questions here. Let's focus on, first of all, scanning. So you're obviously aware that you are going to potentially use these in some way. You had the opportunity. So in terms of scanning, are you just doing it on like a normal piece of paper, and then just stick it on a scanner?

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Like, is there any tricks to scanning this in any special way or is it just literally just highest resolution and hitting scan?

Chad Danieley: Yeah. That's highest resolution as possible. And then I just keep those on hand. Yeah. And you can treat those in ways that can communicate in several different ways. Yeah, it's actually a pretty simple process. The part that isn't simple, I guess, is the actual letterpress part, which I always forget people don't know about. So I always...

Ian Paget: Yeah. We can go into that afterwards. I just wanted to ask when you was actually using that. So you've done a high resolution scan of A to Z. You picked out the letters for Joker, put it into illustrator. Are you doing like a live trace or something? Or are you just-

Chad Danieley: Oh. Oh yeah, no. It was specifically, Todd, the director, what I've heard was like, it was to not be digitised. It was to be left as it was in Photoshop. Because we tried to redraw it and it just, again, a person connects with vectors in a way that they don't with a Photoshop edge of something. So we kept trying to redraw it, it just kind of cut everything out. So it's like, it's the same Photoshop and stay live. So everything, yeah, I got to re-scan everything in it like 4800 I think or even more.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Actually, I was going to say, because you probably didn't consider that these were going to be used on like ultra 8K screens and projected... and I don't know how big each letter would've been, like three meters high or something ridiculous. So I guess you put the original mock up together just using reasonable quality scans. And then, are you saying that you needed to re-scan them all once it was agreed?

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Yeah. Once we realised I had to get... That they were going to need the full set of letters and everything at high res. Then I pulled everything in, re-scanned everything.

Ian Paget: It's a good job you still had the original letter-pressed versions available, because you probably wouldn't be able to recreate it in exactly the same way again.

Chad Danieley: Correct. Yeah. There's always a sense of panic when that happens, because you're like, "Oh, god did I have?" Because it is, it's true. Because like, I think there's 15... That day, they made those was way back in 2016 or something. I had like 15 or 20 specimen sheets from that state, meaning like how everything was set up. And they all have... They're all relatively close, but they all have somewhat different tones in them, I guess I would say. So yeah, that part. But luckily, I had it all, so it's all good.

Ian Paget: Yeah. That's wild. So basically every set that you're buying you are-

Chad Danieley: Cataloging.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Cataloging. Keeping the originals, scanning them, keeping them on Dropbox.

Chad Danieley: Yep.

Ian Paget: Why are you doing that? Are you keeping that so that you can create artwork with it? Is there a reason for doing that?

Chad Danieley: Yeah. I mean, I guess it would make... It's, I guess, that's sort of what can I bring to a project? Or what's my voice or what makes my work different? And I can say, I do like to go in that area of letterpress feeling of text... And even if it's a not letterpress, say, I'll pull in textural stuff from letterpress maybe and treat a logo. Treat a type base in a way that I can have some... Communicate something through the textures that I've scanned or created. Even if you just take a logo and run it through your Xerox machine about 25 times, you'll eventually get something really beautiful.

Like it'll start to distort in a way that just starts to go off the rails. I liken it to sort of maybe The Velvet Underground. It's like, they're technically so terrible and wrong, but they're so perfect. Like they're just the most beautiful thing I've ever heard in my life. So you know, they're just about to just... I want the type that kind of maybe feel like it's just about to go off the rails. Like The Velvet Underground song, that goes back on the rails, that kind of wobbles in a way. Say if there's electronic artists that I love who do that, which is like Boards of Canada or something like that, where they run digital stuff through analog, through digital, through analog and you start playing.

So if everyone thinks like that point of entry into letterpress is expensive, I will have to agree. Like, I bet yeah. I know, this sucks. I've been doing it for too long so I have collected a lot of stuff. But they're like, "Oh, yeah, but I don't have a letterpress." So I kept to the Joker logo. I'll be like, "You got a printer though, you can just take... If you have a laser printer with a copier on top, just keep running it through and just move it around and play with it and just see what happens when you start manipulating it through just even a cheap photocopier."

It doesn't have to be letterpress per se. It can be about... It's almost like, I would never put myself in Brand New, but how we kind of orchestrated through Roxy music stuff, and you just kind of like throw it through this process and see what happens. The oblique strategy stuff. It's like, what happens if. I don't know. let's run it through all kinds of different sources and see what... Beautiful things happen.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. You know, something I'm thinking that you probably haven't even considered. Okay. So you mentioned that the entry into letterpress is expensive. You need all the kit. And since you are cataloging all these letters that you're purchasing, some of them could be like a one off, have you ever considered selling sets of scanned prints?

Chad Danieley: Oh, totally. Yeah. I need to get around to that so bad.

Ian Paget: Well, I don't think you realise what you tapped into really by accident, that you have this passion and it seems like you've had this passion for letterpress and things made by hand, and it feels like you've been cataloging it kind of as a hobby, but you created the Joker logo. Did you do the Suicide Squad one as well?

Chad Danieley: That was a actually a... It was a similar situation with the Joker, they were doing a trailer and they wanted to see what we could experiment on. And I don't think that one got used in the official trailer. I think they went back to their-

Ian Paget: Yeah. I remember seeing it in your Instagram and I was thinking, was that the one in the film? I can't remember.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. They wanted to-

Ian Paget: But, yeah, it looked really cool.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. There was an experiment.

Ian Paget: I guess what I'm getting at is that, the Joker film was so well known, you could actually become like the person for letterpress typography. And you could just spend your entire life scanning, documenting, and releasing books per set with downloadable images and charge for it. You know, charge a lot of money because you're spending like all that time sourcing it, printing it. Like you could do a whole load of different versions, like maybe like 20 different versions of A, 20 different versions of B, each one have like slightly different look and feel.

And then that means that if I want to make the Joker logo, I just buy your set of scanned images. Like it's not a type face, It's just a folder of scanned images. And then I can use that, but they're all high resolution. I don't need to go out there and do what you are doing, where you need to go keep sourcing all of the letters, getting all the ink, getting all the equipment. I really feel that you could make a business just from doing that, off the back of the Joker logo.

Chad Danieley: Well, we should talk after this.

Ian Paget: Yes. I think we should. Yeah. I genuine really think you should do that.

Chad Danieley: I mean, that's the thing. I don't feel ownership to them, so I am totally cool with... I really do like the idea to open... I'm really into open source. The only way we can move forward is-

Ian Paget: Yeah, but you could make this your life.

Chad Danieley: Oh, yeah.

Ian Paget: Like I would pay, other graphic designers listening would probably pay for those sets because they're really cool. And if you want to make something quite edgy... There's loads of scenarios that I can think of from film to music. Probably film or music mostly, but there might be other cases where people will want something that has like a handmade quality to it. And you could use those scans in any way that you want. It's not a type face, it's just a set of high resolution scans.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. Yeah. It's been on my to do list, to start figuring out how I should...

Ian Paget: Yeah, we can figure out afterwards, or we can just record it and then everyone can listen.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. And they're like, "Hey, where's that thing?" I'm like, "Oh my god. They want it. We have to do it now."

Ian Paget: Well, yeah. Okay, before we get into that, I do have... Yeah, there's one more question I've been dying to ask. So letterpress, right? So I see what you're doing. It looks cool. I've seen other graphic designers that's known for this type of thing. They do posters and things and that's all they do now. How do you get into that? Like what equipment do you need and where do you get it from?

Chad Danieley: Whew. Okay. Actually, if you're up in England has a strange, huge letterpress community. When I say it's strange, it's cool. So in England, there's like lots of... I see lots of people access to it. Probably the best way to start would either just Google letterpress in your city or whatever. It's usually going to probably be at a college.

Ian Paget: Right.

Chad Danieley: They seem to have been relegated to a historical thing, which is true. Say, for instance, here in LA, it's mostly still ArtCenter and Otis. Like they have two labs, so if you wanted to, they have night classes or weekend classes where you can just go in and start just take basic intro class. And that's where you can just... You'll either get bit by the bug or not bit by the bug. I don't want to set an entire, like...

But if you just want to kind of look at stuff, Dafi Kühne, he's this guy in Switzerland I believe. He actually has some really good Vimeo videos. I think his name, it's D-A-F-I K-U-H-N-E. And it's called the Dafi Kühne printing show. And he's the coolest guy. Like he's got a unique personality and he's really about how to make letterpress more contemporary. So he'll do these really... So he'll just take his laser cut elements with the traditional letterpress. And he does, I think they're like 15 minute little shows that he does where he'll go over a topic.

So if anyone would first just look at stuff and see if they're into it, I would definitely go check his Vimeo show out to see like, "Hey, that really sparks some creativity." And after that, if you want to do it physically, wherever you are, usually it's going to be the local college, art school that has some kind of printing class. Or there's usually in every city a printing museum, just look up your city printing museum. Like here, I think there's two in LA and there's a lot in Midwest. There's a lot of letterpress in Midwest. But honestly, if you found someone you liked on Instagram just send them something, "Hey, I'm interested in this..." you'd be surprised, we're kind of... If anyone shows any interest, all of a sudden we get excited, like, "Oh my god. Someone likes..."

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Danieley: Like my garage door's open when I'm printing and the neighbours they just sometimes they'll stop by, they're like... I remember like a year ago, this guy stopped by after walking back and forth, he's like, "Okay, I have to ask, what is this?" I was like, "Oh," then I put everything down, and you're just chatting about the topic. So I guarantee you, if there's someone locally, if you want to go nerd out with them, they would love to have someone to nerd out with. It's pretty, you know?

Ian Paget: Oh, definitely. Definitely. And also, in terms of the actual, letter sets themselves, I assume that you are collecting them in some way. Where are you getting them from? Are they new or are they old? I'm not really sure how it works. I've never really looked into it properly.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. So within the last 10 years, it's gotten a little easier to find new stuff, because people are... I say easier, I put that in quotes. Because around '70s, whenever they started dumping everything. Like people, they would use wood type for fire, because it's just cheaper to use that. Because you got photostat, and photo type setting and all this stuff. And all of a sudden they're like, "Ah."

Chad Danieley: So just like the TD 303 and 808 and the 909 in Roland's case, they couldn't give those away, but now they're selling them for $12,000. I saw an eBay an 808 for like 12,000. I thought, "Wow." Roland, couldn't give those away. So similar to like in letterpress back in the day, they're just dumping these things just for scrap metal. And some people, luckily a lot of people kind of kept theirs in the garage and kind of put them...

Ian Paget: Yeah.

Chad Danieley: And a lot of the old stuff I get, they're usually from like eBay or there's a couple people I know who contact me like, "Hey, do you want these?" So once you kind of get into the, like a couple letterpress friends, they'll tip you off like, "Hey, go check this stuff out. They got some more type over there." And you kind of have to just... I don't have kids, so I have extra time. So this is my thing, I can spend time on... But then, about, I don't know, about eight years ago or so, people started... There was a couple people who used CNC machines to cut out stuff, cut old patterns out.

So we found that if you don't have all the full type family, like if I'm missing a couple letters, if I can get a good trades from it, there's a couple people who can do actual, who can recreate the actual wood type.

Ian Paget: Oh, wow.

Chad Danieley: So if I need a... Because like, again with the Joker, it was like, "Oh my god, do I have the entire..." I was like freaking out, "Do I have the entire family?" Luckily I did. But if I didn't, I could get some made by this a guy in Wells who does stuff. So whenever it comes to that, it's almost like, I guess, what Aaron Draplin says is junking. So I go junking for my wood type stuff.

Ian Paget: That sounds so exciting.

Chad Danieley: It really is. So you can like, "Ah." It's almost like a scene of the crime because someone will like, if you have a tray... When you go somewhere, someone will like, "Oh, there's this tray." And you look at it, your like, "Oh." And then you pull a couple trays down and you'll find other families that belong to it. You're like, "Let me put the scene of the crime back together."

Ian Paget: Oh, yeah. By that you're just like proper nerding out about it like, "Oh my god."

Chad Danieley: Three drawers down, can we have those too because that goes with that family. So I'm putting everything back together. So it is fun to put, as I like to say, just keeping the family together. Because a lot of times... There was a trend, and still is a trend, to separate the family and kind of like sell a letter to... I'm not against this. Some people they frown upon it, I figure. I'm like, Hey, they like letters too. Though, I do like to make a set. I do like, "Oh my god, I want that whole family." But they are just beautiful on their own. You just look at them, you're like, "Ah, there's..." There's a hundred years of communication that's happening through the type face.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's nice to see them. I always admire it when I see images of just, like a single letter. It's nice to see it in that way rather than just print it out.

Chad Danieley: Yeah.

Ian Paget: To actually see the printing block.

Chad Danieley: Yeah. It's like, just let it stand in its glory.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. You know what, I think that's a really good place to wrap up the official interview. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to carry on recording, and what I'll do for the interview, I'll add a bit afterwards. I'll leave this in. So people that are listening, I'll wrap this up and then I'll add a bit on afterwards if you want to carry on listening.

Chad Danieley: Cool.

Ian Paget: But in terms of like the official thing for like transcription and everything, I'll make this the end of the interview. So Chad, thank you so much for coming on.

Chad Danieley: Thank you so much.

Ian Paget: It's been absolutely amazing. And yeah, I look forward to sharing this with everybody. I think they'll really enjoy it. Thank you so much.