Becoming a Designer in a Ruthless Industry

Ian Paget: So if you listen to any of the podcasts that I've released recently, something that I've started doing is slightly change the format of the show so that it's focused on helping people to make a living designing logos. And Caz, we've been friends for a while. You are at a point where you are working for yourself and you are designing logos fairly consistently. I see you doing them a lot. So I want to go into your story. I want to go into your background, and hopefully people in the audience can learn from you. So I think what we should do is rewind, go back in time a little bit. Can you talk through how you origin you became a graphic designer, so how you first started out?

Caz Cusumano: Yeah, absolutely. So I think for me, when I was, well, I guess from a real young age, I was sort of always quite creative, doodling as a child. And I was kind of in an environment where my dad's good friend at the time was a designer. And it was the old school style of designing with kind of Pantone markers, mechanical pencils. I kind of remember it all quite vividly really, going into his room, if you like, and seeing all these art materials. And I remember certain things that he was doing were so intricate, the illustrative stuff. Even then, thinking about maybe logos that this guy was doing, they were quite illustrative, old school style logos that had an elegance about them that maybe don't conform to certain logo rules now. But looking at them as a piece of design, I was just so inspired. And I'm talking about really quite young, eight or nine, maybe.

So I was always into that and always felt that this guy was super cool. He was designing stuff, he was drawing stuff, he was bringing things to life on the page. And I remember being at school and really gearing everything to that direction. So I even think from the age of probably around 13, I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a graphic designer. And I did D&T, design and technology lessons. And it would be like, "Do you want to do the woodwork or do you want to do the design?" And I would do the design. And I remember projects in there where there was things like designing your mobile phones, for example. We had a project, we had to design a mobile phone. And I would be sort of like sketching really roughly in the book, and almost sketching in the way that I do now on a page where it's just really quick scamps, logo idea, or at the time, in this particular project, sketching mobile phone designs.

And I really enjoyed that kind of process. And I found so much beauty in the sketches. Those were my favourite pages in the project. And I remember kind of looking at that book and thinking, "I'm really proud of these sketches. They mean something to me." There were jagged lines, about 20 lines to draw one line of the phone. It was very rough and ready. And yeah, I kind of just geared everything that way.

I come from a background of a family of hairdressers. And I always think my dad wasn't too keen if I went into hair dressing, although I did kind of like have that around me all the time. But very much they were similar in a sense career-wise of creation. My dad was an artist with hair. So I kind of was always been in quite a creative world. So I picked kind of art, design, and music, and everything that was sort of creative to lead me into this direction of doing graphic design.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I was very much similar. It's interesting hearing your story. I know we've known each other for a long time, but we haven't actually really gone into detail on this stuff. And we're a similar age. I love the DT classes, doing drawing and sketching and making stuff. I like both of it. I was always happy doing both. And I think you I'd like to think that a lot of people that are graphic designers had that similar background where when they were younger, they enjoyed drawing, creating stuff, making things.

But I guess the challenge is actually getting into that career, and I think it's good that we've gone right back to this, because there might be some people listening that might be at this position right now. They're very early in their career, and they need to figure out what next. So you've got a passion for that, and you know that you want to go into graphic design. And it's interesting that you've got your parents kind of run their own businesses. So I can see how you've got to where you are now. So you've got that interest. Did you then go into further education to learn graphic design?

Caz Cusumano: So from sort of GCSE, I went and did a BTEC national diploma in graphic design at college. And I obviously went through the course. And I don't want to sound sort of vein or big headed, but I was one of say the students that was doing really well on the course.

Ian Paget: And yeah, you was good and you knew it.

Caz Cusumano: I was good. And I enjoyed it. And I must admit, I finished the course with a distinction. And I kind of took two, there was two route presented to me. There was go into another higher level of education, or kind of look for a junior designer job. I remember my brother was at university at the time. And also I'd struggle with some anxiety disorders. And I often get asked a question about why I didn't go to say university and stuff.

And I think that university wasn't really, it's not for everyone. I think you kind of get pushed down certain roads. And for me, it wasn't right. It wasn't good for us financially as a family, I think, having both of us there. It wasn't right for me because of where I was with my anxiety at the time. And I just wanted to learn from the people doing the job. So I decided to take a junior designer role at something like eight grand a year at the time just to get my foot in the door.

Ian Paget: You know what's interesting with that? I actually think that even if you did go to university, in terms of that entry point, you would still have just started as a junior. So I actually think you did the right thing.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. Looking back, I feel that it was the right thing because I didn't end up with any particular debt that I needed to be concerned about. I was fortunate enough to have and worked with some amazing designers who were actually doing it within a job. And also the creative world in the commercial sense was a lot different to the way education was showing us.

So as much as I think education shows you the ideal process, in the education world, you can have certain amounts of time to do certain amounts of research and this and this and this. But we all know that the commercial world, projects vary from project to a project. There's never two cookie cutter projects that are presented to you. There's always caveats that you have to be mindful of like budget, who's involved. There's all sorts of things.

And I learn quickly that, well, number one, I wasn't, when I left school, what I thought I was, the next best thing. And I did leave going into the job thinking that I was God's gift to graphic design, and actually was quickly put down to earth that there was still a hell of a lot that I needed to learn. And I was doing artwork and tasks, and brushing up on my software whilst doing the artwork and stuff, which helps me understand print a lot more, stuff that I wasn't getting taught at college at the time. So I learned a lot from real world.

Ian Paget: I think people do learn a lot in that first job. I just wanted to quickly ask you. So you was lucky that you was able to get a junior position straight out of college doing that. Was it a BTEC course, you said?

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. BTEC national diploma.

Ian Paget: Yeah. So I just wanted to ask, so that BTEC course, how skilled was you after that? Was you in a position where you had a decent portfolio and you could actually go into a job and actually do proper work? So when I worked in my previous job, I was a creative director. So I would bring in, we would hire people. So sometimes it was senior graphic designers, but sometimes we'd get interns. And interns had a bit of a scrappy portfolio. It didn't really matter what it was too much. As long as you could see some potential, you as happy to take them on. But they wasn't really quite ready yet to do proper client work. Where was you in terms of your skillset at that point?

Caz Cusumano: I think I was probably above the average portfolio at the time. Again, I don't want to sound so vain or anything, but I think I was basically...

Ian Paget: No. You were good at what you did.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. Like anything, I think if you're going to do something and you enjoy it, you do it to the best that you can do it. And I always looked to try and think that next level, try and level up what I was doing. So with my portfolio, I had been told that it was above average from what they'd seen at somebody within same sort of point in life. And I also remember back then being really kind of committed to getting jobs or impressing people that I would focus on how I mounted my work, because we're talking old school in the sense of A2 portfolios, walking around town centers with these massive A2 kind of leatherette star portfolios.

Ian Paget: I had an A1, one of those. And I had to go on the bus and everything. And it was a flipping nightmare.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. And I remember doing that, walking into places and being quite gutsy about, "Hey look, have you got any jobs?" I'm ringing people up and saying, "Look, I'm just finishing, but I'd love to send my portfolio." So I think in order to get into a job, you still need to have an air of, if you don't ask, you don't know. So taking kind of the bull by the horns, and ringing pull up, or like I did, sort of walking off the street and be quite ballsy in the front.

Yeah,. Sometimes people might go no, or might laugh at you or whatever. But you're going to send a message that somebody will remember that act of being spontaneous. And for me, walking into a design agency like, "Have you got any jobs? Here's my portfolio." Some people might have gone, "Look, you're wasting our time. We need to book this in this in, this, that, and the other. I would've left an impression on their memory, definitely.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think you make a really good point actually, because we are both in the position now where we work for ourselves. But when it comes around to actually getting that first job or getting any graphic design job in fact, you can't just send one letter or apply for one job or even a couple of jobs. You have to be fairly ruthless. Like I remember when I was applying for jobs, I was applying for as many as I could. Sometimes it was like 10 every day or whatever. If you don't do that, you won't get the opportunity because the reality is there's a lot of people out there that are very good at what they do. There's a lot of designers out there, and everybody's hungry for those jobs.

I would go as far as saying the graphic design industry is ruthless. I mean, everyone's friendly and kind. But when it comes around to getting work, it's like a pack of wolves. We all want it. We all want that work. And when it comes around to getting jobs, the truth is a lot of the time they get hundreds, hundreds of applications. And someone like us now, someone that's got a few years experience, we need to go through those applications. And what you tend to find is that you would go through the top few and be like, "No." You can easily see the ones that just aren't right. But then you'll get to one or two that's perfect. You don't even look at the rest because ...

I mean, some people might go through all of them. But when you are in that creative director position or in that position where you're hiring the person, you just need to get the job done. You've got lots of work coming in. You don't have the time. So you skim it, you look at stuff really quickly. And if you get two or three on the top of the pile, book them in for an interview, they got the job. And if you don't keep trying and trying and trying and trying, you won't be on the top of that pile. So what you did going in, you probably had way more chance than somebody that just sent in a letter. I don't think I would've liked that too much in my last place, if someone just dropped in. But maybe my CEO might have liked that. This guy's got some balls. We'll hire him.

Caz Cusumano: Absolutely. And I think ruthless is the key word in your career from that point. It is a very dog eat dog world, this industry. And I think being ruthless and being gutsy and playing the game, if you like, creates a good foundation for longevity. Thinking about mantras for the start of 2022, I wrote down in the front of my notebook, take more risks and feel fear and do it anyway because I feel like people that take risks are generally opening up opportunities of success. And I think ruthless risks, to a degree, they're kind of relevant to your career from that point, whether you are taking a risk from moving into a job that you maybe you're comfortable in a particular job, but you want to progress your career, but you're frightened about moving. Well, then you would take that risk to move to see what it's like. There's always an element of being ruthless and taking risks. I think that's fundamental to, well, being successful to a degree.

Ian Paget: Definitely. I think especially as a graphic designer, because I don't think I've said it enough on this podcast. It's a tough industry. And if you aren't the type of person that will work your ass off creating the best portfolio you can, and you're not going out there, knocking on all of the doors. And when I say knocking on the doors, it could be sending emails, sending letters, and not just send ...

When you send an email, like I received an email the other day from someone that was looking for a work experience placement. Bless him. I still got back to the guy. But it was like, "Dear sir or Madam." And it was obviously copy paste and sent to everybody. But doing that and sending out a thousand of those isn't going to cut it. And when we have the internet and you can go on LinkedIn and find out who the owner of the company is, or who the creative director is, you can actually find their name, you can find out what they're interested in, and you can actually write a really personalised letter directly to that person.

You can even go on their company portfolio and see what they recently worked on, and make some positive notes about out what they do and actually tailor it to that person. You're more likely to get ... Well, you are significantly more likely to get the job if you write a personalised email versus sending a dear sir or Madam, I'm looking for a job. It's just not going to cut the mustard. When you consider that there are a potentially hundreds, if you're in London, probably thousands, significant number of people applying for those jobs, you need to stand out. You need to look different just to even be considered for an interview. So I agree with that. And I'm glad that you brought that up.

Caz Cusumano: And being personable is so important. Now I quote my good friend, Alex Curtis, we both know people buy from people. So if you are presenting yourself, presenting yourself as a person with a personal touch, having an idea and almost challenging that idea and saying, "How can I make this more memorable?" Whether you're looking for a job or just generally doing work, or even selling your own design services, I think if you kind of have that in the back of your mind about people buy from people, I'm a person, I want to be myself, I want to stand out, I want to be memorable, and you apply those fundamental, dare I say, rules to whatever you're doing, whether you're applying for a job or doing a project, you are creating something that's got more chance of being receptive and almost engaging on a bit more of a human level. And humans are, big word in the industry, sorry, right now, human experiences and being human and that kind of stuff that's going around language wise. So really good to kind of be yourself as well.

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely. I do want to go into how you started your business. But I want to go into some of the stuff that you mentioned and hopefully you're up to talk about this.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah, absolutely.

Ian Paget: You mentioned about your problems with anxiety and just being anxious about those next steps. I've had this problem and actually the more you speak to people, a lot of people do. When you finish school, so when you're like 16 or whatever, your life up until that point has been dictated by somebody else. So parents or guardians or whatever, they would've basically done everything for you. And then school is kind of dictated to you, the times of the day.

But when you hit that point, in the UK at least 16 or 18 or whatever, everything is kind of steered for you. Your days are planned for you. But when you leave that, you've got no parachutes anymore. It's like here's a cliff, push, survive. So it is very daunting going from that very structured regime to having to go out and get a job, get work, start a life of own. It's really scary. And I think a lot of people have those anxieties. Would you mind talking through some of the stuff that you did to maybe help with that?

Caz Cusumano: Yeah, definitely. Well, I think even kind of going back to my anxieties kind of going through my career, I was diagnosed with anxiety at sort of a young age, at six, seven, I believe. And I very much kept it a secret all the way through to probably around the age of maybe 28. And I was always struggling with my anxiety. And I think as well it was product of maybe a creative overactive imagination because generally anxiety is bringing up the worst case situations and dealing with sort of fear. And I think as designers, we can create so much amazing stuff that we can create movies, horror movies, if you like, of our life. And I believe that when I was trying to handle my anxiety, I always found that it was a bit of a secret. And I only opened up to people that were very much within my close circle of friends or close family network, whereas here I am talking about it on a podcast.

Ian Paget: Well, yeah. I actually really like to talk about this type of thing because I've had issues with that as well. We've spoken about this type of thing. And I think it's good to talk about it because people think that they shouldn't and they should keep it secret. And I just think it's good to talk about some of the stuff that, how you handled it. Did you get therapy and so on to help with that?

Caz Cusumano: Definitely. So I was in therapy from a young age. And I was in therapy for a long, long chunks and periods of my life, even from the age of sort of 14 to gosh, yeah, into my 20s and late 20s.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's good to get help because I think you would really struggle if you didn't have that extra support. So if there's anyone listening that is kind of facing those issues, especially in your adolescence, when you are younger, I think it's good to get that support if you're able to, or just talk to somebody because most therapy ,to be honest, is talking about it.

Caz Cusumano: Definitely. And you learn techniques like when you are dealing with sort of ... Kind of if you're thinking about CBT and trying to learn behaviours from when you were younger or how you used to cope with anxiety back then, and you're kind of challenging it and learning to tolerate uncertainty. But I think a lot of the time I was managing anxiety, in those years, not in the best way, sort of seeking reassurance, always overthinking, trying to think my way out of a problem, which these are all short term fixes. They don't really help in the long term. And I'm definitely not somebody that's over-cut. I think my anxiety disorder is a part of who I am, and I'm going to be learning to manage over it for a long time.

Medication as well. I'm not embarrassed or afraid to say, or stigmatised by the fact that I've had medication for my anxiety. And it's all helped. That's helped. So I'm listening to my GP and my medical professionals at this point. And I'm learning to communicate with them and we're finding something that works for me. And what works for me doesn't work for everyone. I think that's important to say, that it's not a one size fits all.

But now, I think things that help me cope with anxiety are things like being open about it, talking to other people who have experienced it. I think you go through life learning who your close friends or people you can kind of, you are really on the same page with, sort of filtering down relationships and excluding ones that make you be somebody that you are not, or don't allow you to kind of express yourself to the way that you want to express yourself. Or if you're trying to be a people pleaser and you're in a kind of community of friends or a network where you're trying to people please all the time, or you are impressionable and it's not who you are really inside, then I think it is kind of a good point to ask yourself, "Is this the right place for me?"

So socially, I think that's important. And handling anxiety now or coping with it through my career, I always remember being really nervous at meetings, meeting people and being in a room, which was technically kind of shut and the door was shut, I was always concerned about that. It felt a little bit claustrophobic. I didn't really enjoy it. Didn't what people would think of me. And I was super kind of young. And there's these people around me that are at a big point in their career and they're looking at me for answers. It was just quite daunting.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I've been there. I've done the same thing. In the creative director role I had, I was supposed to come in, I'm supposed to be a director, I'm supposed to be like in this fancy role, I'm the person taking the lead of their project. And it's scary. I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm just going to quickly share something that I do. I think breathing is really important. So I'll talk through what I do now. I've probably mentioned this on the podcast before because I give this advice out all the time.

Breathing is important. A big part of that is posture. So recording a podcast, I don't get nervous like I used to. I'm actually quite comfortable doing it now. But if you stand up and kind of put your chest out, shoulders back, immediately, you can breathe. You can feel your lungs with air, and doing the whole breathing through your nose for four seconds and out through your nose for six, or the other way around, and having the right posture. I found any time that I've had those meetings, breathing like that a couple of times has really calmed me down while previously I'd be there, sat down, probably hunched day over the desk, not really focusing on anyone else, but thinking, "I need to speak soon." And I get really nervous. And I don't know if you was the same.

Caz Cusumano: Absolutely. I can relate to that completely. And I think breathing, yeah. If you hadn't mentioned it, I definitely would've because it's so important to kind of control that breathing. It helps with all sorts. Breathing through pain as well is really important. And also things like mindfulness and being aware in the environment that you're in, just kind of getting out of your head and just maybe having your hands on a desk and just focusing on the way the desk feels or bringing yourself into a moment of kind of-

Ian Paget: It's called grounding.

Caz Cusumano: Grounding. Yeah, absolutely. And also as well, I think it's important to have self compassion and catch ourselves when we're talking to ourselves, because you mentioned about being a creative director and the expectation. I think sometimes we put too much expectation on ourselves. And actually to kind of quote what my mom says all the time, just do your best, son.

Ian Paget: It's all you can do.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. That's all you can do. And if you're doing your best, there isn't much more that anyone can ask of you. And if it isn't good enough for them, it's not your problem if you've done your best. And I think that's important to kind of have self-compassion. I'm learning more about self compassion as well, because through a recent sort of therapist, and also some things that I've seen, self-compassion is so good because it almost is a lot stronger than self-esteem because we look to self-esteem in order to feel good. But self-esteem is an external thing that we get from other people. Oh, you look nice today. Self-esteem boosted. Oh, that's a great piece of work. Self-esteem boosted. Whereas self-compassion teaches you to have those conversations with yourself.

And I think that's important because if you're looking for self-esteem, those comments, those things that people say that make you feel good, they don't always come. And if you are looking for self-esteem as a way to feel better, then you might be struggling if it doesn't come, you might start asking yourself, "Why didn't it happen? Why didn't I get a compliment? I showed my work to somebody. They didn't even say anything good about it. My self-esteem is now deflated a little bit." So self-compassion would say, "Well look, maybe they liked it, maybe they didn't. I'm just going to accept the uncertainty. I think it's good. I did my best. Then happy days. I feel good in myself." So I think it's important to kind of talk to yourself in a certain way. That's just my two pennies' worth on the subject.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think that's really good advice. And something else I want to add as well, I think when you are young, I mean, older people might find this advice useful as well. But when you go into a professional environment for the first time, you don't really know what to expect, and it can be daunting because you're going into a room sometimes, you'll have ... I've been in meetings where there's been like 10 people around the table. You have the CEO, you have the marketing manager, you have a whole team of people, and they're smartly dressed, slick. They got that sheen to them, that healthy sheen, and fancy hairstyles and stuff, real people with serious confidence, money. And they're just oozing with it.

People like that are really scary. I mean, they're not really. But in that moment, it can be really daunting when you are, like how I tend to feel. You've got all these really successful people around the table and then you've got this little baby sat down and that's me, don't really know what I'm doing. But anyway, when you are new to this, this is how it can feel. It can feel like you shouldn't be there. You have this kind of imposter syndrome. It's really daunting.

But what I've found over the years, so I'm now like late 30s, I've actually found that almost everybody feels that way. Pretty much everyone feels that way. So I've always had a phobia of public speaking. And that's not just in front of a big room. That can be three people around the table. That can just be hit and record on a microphone. It's just the phobia of speaking to people in some way. And what I've found over the years, everybody is the same, pretty much. So even the best public speakers, they feel that too. They feel those butterflies, they feel that. They feel inferior. They don't like people looking at them. It's like our brains are wired to just not like those situations. But you learn that over time.

So those people that are really good at that, they've wanted to get good at that and they've work through it. So they would've worked through those anxieties. Some people are naturally like that. But most people work towards that. I'm doing that myself now. If you go back to the early podcasts, I'm anxious as hell.

But anyway, my point is it's okay to be uncomfortable in those situations. And actually, if you are no nervous, it's okay to say. And pretty much everyone is really understanding. Most people won't judge you for being slightly anxious in those situations. Even my old director, she used to get, I could tell when she was nervous. You could see it on her face. Like she'd had like red blotches on her face. You could tell that she was really nervous and really worked up about those situations. And that's someone that I deemed as incredibly confident. So when you are new to those positions, just be yourself. It's fine. It's okay. And just accept that actually everyone's the same. It's just those people that ooze confidence, they've just had that time to develop that, and they were once where you are. So it's okay feel like you're not quite where they are yet. Just be yourself. It's fine.

Caz Cusumano: And take your time as well. I think we often think that we need to be something quickly. I look at my career now in my late 30s and think, "I have so many opportunities where I didn't need to rush it. I did need to just take it as it came and be organic and just grow into the situation." Don't beat yourself up if you're not at a certain point or level that you want to be at. The expectation of time is, I think when you're younger, you've got time to just explore and allow yourself to kind of grow into the position. So take advantage of the time that's there. Definitely, you'll do fine.

Ian Paget: I like what you said there, and it follows on from a conversation I was having with a guy yesterday. When you first start out, don't feel the need to like rush into one particular niche area. So if you want to try logo design, try it, but try everything else. Try experiment because you have that time and that freedom to do any of that stuff.

Caz Cusumano: Definitely. All the disciplines that I've worked on or learned, UI/UX wasn't really a thing when I was studying design, and yet that's a core part of what I do now, as well as logo design. I've worked in animation. These are things that I've explored in the early point of my career and actually dabbled with. So then we are so lucky to have so much around this resources-wise in order to kind of tap into and pick things up to really find who we want and who we are before we think about niching. So yeah, I think just take advantage of the plethora. Is that the right word? Of things that were out there.

Ian Paget: I think so. So I want to carry on a little bit with your story. We took a detour there, but that's a good detour to have. I think that was important.

Caz Cusumano: You know what I'm like.

Ian Paget: So in terms of your story, what we've spoken about is how you had the passion for design, how you did the BTEC, how you was lucky enough to get a job. I've looked at your LinkedIn profile and I know that you did a couple of other graphic design jobs along the way. But there would've been a point where you decided I want to work for myself. How did that come about? What was the reason why you decided to jump ship from a stable, secure job to being fully independent?

Caz Cusumano: Well, I think it was that. It was the illusion of the jobs being stable. I was made redundant twice. And when that happens, you realise that it's not, I'm going to say this like, again, it's my advice and what I'm saying isn't for everyone. But I just think employment isn't the stable route that everyone thinks.

Ian Paget: That is exactly why I said it because it gives the illusion stable and safe and secure. But actually it just is unstable as, probably even like less stable than being independent because when you're independent, you have the control. So when you know that you don't have clients coming in, you can do whatever you need to do to get those clients coming in. It's not easy. It's not easy in the slightest. But at least there isn't the illusion of stability. In those jobs, I wasn't necessarily aware that there was no client work coming in or when there was no client work coming in. Actually, I was just thinking, "Oh, great. I've got some time to like do this project or this project." But actually that wasn't a good position.

Caz Cusumano: Completely. So you learned to base basically be kind of in employment. I think employment's great. Obviously, finding your feet and you're doing what you need to do and you're learning on the job. But I learned quickly that, number one, it wasn't stable. There wasn't security. My wife was pregnant at the time. I just bought a kind of four bed detached because I've moved into a family home, if you like, and I'd lost my job.

So it affected me quite a lot. I actually, at that point, thinking around that time did find another job. It wasn't for me. There's also the ideas no agency is the same. You have people that you're probably not going to get on with, there's politics. There's things that they're going to be asked to do of you that you don't like. There's things you're probably going to experience in work that you just think I don't want to be spoken to or treated like this. And you lose control to a degree. And I actually suffered a really kind of bad with health and I struggled. I was going to it all up.

Kind of found my feet again and got another job and then got made redundant again. And I think because I had a bad time and had a bit of a nerve breakdown and I was in a bad way that I realised that when I lost my job for the second time after kind of getting myself back into life and doing something that I was going to give up, I thought, "Do you know what? This isn't the worst thing that's actually ever happened to me. And I've been through worse." And I think when you got to the ragged edge of life, you kind of go, This isn't that bad. I've been made redundant before. I've struggled. I've had things happen. And I might as well just give it a go, give it a go, go solo. I've got a good network around me. And I'm done working for everyone because I got to look after myself now and regain some control."

And that was when I decided to go self-employed. And I just said at the time, my wife was in a job, that I'll do my best again. To quote my mom, just do your best, son. And they were all nervous about me going self-employed. And they were again under the illusion that employment was a security for me. But actually, I've done really well in the three to four years. I think it is that I've been set up now. And there's good and bad days. And there's definitely pros and cons with being self-employed.

But if you ask me would I go to employment? I'd just straight up say, no, it's not for me. I like the control. I like to work and choose who I, I like to pick and choose who I work with and work in a way that suits me. I don't want certain rules. I want to be able to forget the idea of a nine to five creative job when actually if I don't feel entirely creative, I can give myself some incubation period of reflection and coming away from a job. Let's be honest. I'm my worst enemy at that point, because sometimes I do get involved in projects and I'm just forcing myself to come up with something on the computer or my sketchbook for hours, and I should actually just take a break and just walk away because nine times out of 10, that really helps. So that's kind of what I wanted to do was to regain some control and to start looking after myself because I felt at the time nobody was looking out for me. And that's how I got into it

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's interesting. So I think some people do it consciously that they make their mind up that they want to be independent. But it sounds like to some degree you was forced down that avenue.

Caz Cusumano: Totally.

Ian Paget: Okay. So making your mind up that you want independence and you want your own clients and you want to be your own boss, that's easy to make your mind up. But obviously you now need work. You need an income coming in. So you need clients. How did you go about going from that security of a full-time job to having your own income? So having clients of your own?

Caz Cusumano: Well, I think what I did was, because I've been in the game for quite a while, people knew who I was. And there was a strategic move as well in regards to kind of branding myself with my sir name because I kind of felt that as a designer, I'd been in this area for a while with quite a unique name that I didn't want to be just another me too freelancer with say something like, I don't know, to quote Apple design company or whatever. Or maybe not say the word Apple actually probably. Let's think of some other fruit. I don't know, Juice, whatever. Give myself a name for example.

And I wanted to run things under my own name because I felt it was unique and if I'd worked with sort of certain people and like worked for clients in agencies, and sent them an email and it had my name, Caz Cusumano at the bottom, that it's a bit more memorable that if they did find me on LinkedIn and I'd see that I'd been set up, they might jog their memory and go, "Oh, I worked with this guy directly. Maybe I should contact him. I'm not breaking any form of kind of tapping up agency clients. So it's a strategic move on my part. But I actually did just reach out to agencies that I'd worked for in the past to kind of contact them on a freelance level. Do you need any freelance support?

So a lot of my work at the time was through agencies and it was a case of just ringing around. I had a great mentor and good friend, Johnson Sinclair, who introduced me to networking, networking events. In some cases, the networking events brought in work. And I also find that, for me, it was more of a B2B kind of start to my world of being self-employed. So I was very much the, dare I say, agency ball, just bouncing around from different agencies, helping them out with freelance.

And quickly became a good support. I was never secretive about who I was working for. A lot of times I was working for agency's competitors. But my values of being kind of honest, transparent, and doing a good job were always more important to them than worrying about whether I was working for their competitor. So that was nice because it felt like I was always trusted and that's something that I hold dear to my heart is kind of honesty and being trustworthy and being loyal. So those values have really helped.

But I kind of got into the world of sort of networking. And then it became more word of mouth. I didn't really advertise my services as such. I just became word of mouth. People were just talking about what I was doing for them. And they had somebody with a similar issue that needed help and support design-wise. And I quickly kind of built up my own clients just through the people that I knew. And then also as well, engaging with other designers. I didn't really engage with designers when I was employed. I didn't think I needed to. Again, I was secure. So I felt like I didn't need anything, but the designers around me, sorry, in a physical element like in the actual job. But then reaching out to design your community, for example, Logo Geek, and being involved in that and other communities, and meeting people, and meeting friends and designers, it's helped because some jobs have come from those links.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, I know I've sent you one.

Caz Cusumano: Absolutely, yeah. So I've worked with other designers. So it's been good in that sense.

Ian Paget: I'd like to ask you about how you gone about approaching agencies. So when you've approached them, has it been, at the beginning, was it agencies that you'd worked with previously?

Caz Cusumano: Yes. So agencies that I'd started with when I was employed that left.

Ian Paget: And how did you go about contacting them and asking them if they had any work going?

Caz Cusumano: Really just kind of ringing them and just saying, "Look, this has happened." I've been to a lot of these places for many years as well. So I had good relationships with the directors and the people that had worked there and never left on bad terms. I think as well that's important. Don't leave your job with bad blood.

Ian Paget: Don't burn bridges. Do not burn bridges. When you leave a job, don't go out saying F-you and I hate you lot. Just leave, be peaceful and leave in the best possible way. I think that's some of the best advice that anyone could ever give, because you never know when you might be in a situation, like you were. I'm not saying that you was in a situation where you was desperate. But actually if you didn't get the work from them, you probably would've been desperate. So going back and asking them.

Okay. So that's going back to people that you previously worked with. That's a nice approach actually. And that shows the real value of actually, when you're starting out, working for a few different companies. In my case, I worked for a couple of companies for a long period of time like my first job, where that was over five years. And then the company that I moved onto, that was 11 years. So I've actually only ever worked for two companies. So you've gone back to agencies. How about new agencies? How have you approached them?

Caz Cusumano: I guess. Again, I think it's been word of mouth. I'm trying to think of the new agencies that I've sort of worked for. It may be that somebody's contacted a designer friend. So say I'm in a network of designers and then they've gone, "We're looking for some freelance support." And then that designer's friends going, "Oh, you should contact this person because they're up for it. And I've mentioned you," sort of thing, that kind of stuff. Or they've had a job where I'm in a network of designers and they're not too keen on working directly as a kind of B2B designer, if you like, or a freelance of two agencies and have gone, "Caz, this isn't the job for me, but I know you do it a lot. Get involved." Or I've been in co-working areas where there's agencies or smaller design agencies, and I've just been sort of having a coffee in the canteen area and made conversation with people.

So really just being in the environment, talking to people and networking and is sort of got me to those clients. And I guess portfolio as well. So some agencies have been quite sort of cold called and got in touch. I know my website's terrible. It's not up to date. I need to sort it out. But I think my Instagram's up to date portfolio wise and then we direct people to that. And I've had people sort of reach out or see my work, and then got in touch that way, which is good. I mean, dare I say, I've not done any sort of paid PPC or worried about any SEO on my site or anything like that. But I should, because I'm in a full false of security if I don't. And it's actually one of my tasks for this year.

Ian Paget: Yeah. But what's coming across from everything that you're saying is right from the beginning, you've been proactive in terms of networking, meeting people, talking with people, showing your work. And if you hadn't done that early on, you probably wouldn't have been in the position where you could make your mind up, "I'm going to work for myself." Because you've built up all those contacts, you built up all those agencies, you made friends with people, you got to know lots of people.

And I think even in terms how we know each other, I think you sent me an email. I think you reached out. And there's obviously a real benefit to doing that because like I said, I pass your work quite a lot. And the reason why I pass your work is because I know that you can do good work because you show it to me. You show me what you are working on. And I know that you are showing me for feedback. But actually, when I think about it now, on top of that support, you are also showing me or demonstrating your capabilities. And actually, I can see real value in that. And I think in terms of your story, your background and your success, I think the root of it is your ability to network.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. I guess you are right. Actually reflecting on that, those sort of early days of meeting you. You were a celebrity that I was reaching out to in my head. And you still are somebody I value and hold dear in my career, but not only from a kind of the Logo Geek, who you are as the Logo Geek and people listening to this podcast. But you're now a really dear friend to me. And likewise, some amazing network people that I've met along the way. Liam, for example, Liam Jackson, one of my best friends and co-host in my own podcast, See Through Design. It's the ability to network and talk to people and kind of be yourself, because when I was interacting with you guys, there was no ulterior motive except for the fact that I wanted to be in your world, show you because I-

Ian Paget: Yeah. You was excited and genuine, and it was nice.

Caz Cusumano: Absolutely. Being genuine is so important. And I wanted to kind of ... The Logo Geeks, the guru of logo design, and he's interviewed all these amazing people, all these people I aspire to and love, Sagi Haviv, Chris Do, people like that. And I just want to reach out to him. I'm going to be, like I said earlier in the podcast, ballsy and gutsy and see how he receives that reach out.

Ian Paget: And I mean it pays off because I mean now you're on my podcast. I pass work over to you. And we kind of, to some degree, network with each other, because I think we're in similar circles. And I think that's one of the benefits of Facebook in particular. I know people don't really like Facebook, but actually in terms of communities and networking with other designers is actually really good for that because I've noticed on Facebook, all of the best designers or all of the people that I admire, they are all connected with each other. It's actually a relatively small circle. So I think in terms of your story, seriously, networking is the key to your success.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah, definitely. Networking is a huge part. And in that, network filtering as well. I'm so lucky to have ... I posted the other day actually, because I received the Made by James book and I think there was a point about friends in there. And I'm lucky to have you, Liam and my good friend, Aaron Mitchell, who's a young designer, very much somebody I want to mentor through his career. And those are my kind of go-tos as well to help me with feedback, but also have been people that have passed me work and we've all sort of looked after each other, to a degree.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think it's interesting that you bring up Made by James because actually I've got to know James relatively well. I've done podcast with him and group calls. And I see James as a friend as well now. And actually, I think when you first are interested in this area, you put people on pedestals and you see them as like celebrities. And to some degree, I mean, they are really. But James, I consider James a friend now. I consider Jacob Cass a friend that I can reach out to. I consider David Airey a friend I can reach out to.

And actually, in terms of the graphic design circle and networking in the way that you've described, I don't think there's any limit to who you can potentially network with because actually even like Pentagram Partners. Okay. I probably wouldn't have been able to contact them if I didn't have a podcast. So actually having a podcast in the way that you have, it kind of opens up a lot of doors to access. But even people Emily Oberman or Louise Fili, I actually feel like I'm comfortable to reach out to them. So I think once you get into a certain network, which you have done, you've tapped into that network and you are doing all the things that you need to do to open up those doors. That's definitely the biggest takeaway from all of this.

Caz Cusumano: I think it's important as well to sort of remember that the motive. Me and Liam, we interviewed James on the Sea Through Design podcast, and it was a wicked interview. We were all down to earth being ourselves. But even kind of going back to the motive of setting up a podcast, it wasn't because I wanted to increase my kudos. It wasn't because ... We both set it up really because we just needed some therapy sessions. And we found talking to each other was really helpful in dealing with our own demons in this career. And we thought there were loads of questions out there that need to be asked. And we're always looking for answers. Why not just go and find the answers by talking to the people directly?

So I think motive is important because I don't know. I've not really ever had the motive to make loads of money or have the motive of being the best designer in the world. I just have the motive of doing the things that I enjoy. Very simple motives and they're genuine. And I think if you come across as genuine or don't come across as genuine, just be genuine, people can see through that. So there's a lot of people trying too hard because their motives are a bit wrong. They're geared towards their own selfishness, their own need to be popular ,their own addiction to that, of being successful, whether being financially successful or just having loads of followers or just being popular. That's their motive, but that's not really my motive.

Ian Paget: And I think that's why you are likable and why you are able to do the type of work that you want to do and how, from afar, I feel that you are successful. I mean, you are at a point now where when you consider where you started, and you didn't go to university. Yeah, you had that BTEC course, actually you've really worked your way up. You've gone through agencies that have made you redundant. You've had tough times. You've gone through anxiety. And now you're at a point where you are fully independent, you've got work coming in, you've got a good network of people, and actually you created a really stable foundation for continued success. However, I mean, you probably don't feel that. But actually compared to where you started, you are totally successful.

Caz Cusumano: Yeah. And I must admit, I do feel when you say it out loud, it's nice to hear because it's, again, that self talk. It doesn't always happen. I don't sometimes sit and tell myself this.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I mean, it's imposter syndrome. I get the same. I sometimes feel like I'm not very good at what I do or anything like that. I think it's fairly normal. But keep going. You're doing well.

Caz Cusumano: And having these friends around us to tell us, pull us out of those situations. So like Col Gray as well. Col Gray and me, we've got such a great relationship. And Col's popular on YouTube and-

Ian Paget: Col's been on the podcast before. So I can link to the interview with him. Col's fantastic.

Caz Cusumano: I'm just so fortunate to have reached out and created these relationships. But like I said, it's just from being genuine. It's not about being anybody else or trying to be somebody else. It's about being yourself.

Ian Paget: Well, that's networking. That is true networking. Networking is not having a business card in your pocket, having a flipping scripted sales pitch. It is being genuine, being interested and actually wanting to make friends. So your approach to networking is the absolute best way of doing it. And it really is the reason why you are where you are. Right back to when you started, going in with your portfolio, asking if they got work. And when you're making a coffee or whatever in the office and getting to know the people, it's all genuine. And if you didn't do any of that, you literally wouldn't be where you are now. So I really do think that's the root of this.

Caz Cusumano: That's the moral of the story, definitely.

Ian Paget: Yeah. That's the moral of the story. Well Caz, we've just gone over an hour. And I think that's kind of a good mic drop moment and a total round up to your story. So hopefully people have found this conversation useful. I'll link to your podcast, See Through Design in the show notes. But go and check that out. Caz and Liam are both really good friends of mine. I enjoy listening to those conversations.

Caz Cusumano: We're going to have you on our show at some point as well. Definitely it's going to happen.

Ian Paget: I'll get Liam on as well. So we can have Liam on here as well.

Caz Cusumano: Definitely. I'll thoroughly enjoy that.

Ian Paget: But people listening, if you don't know Caz and Liam already, go and check out their podcast, and go and say hi. Don't be afraid to say hello and-

Caz Cusumano: Definitely to reach out to me.

Ian Paget: Yeah. You never know what might come of that connection. Well Caz, it's been amazing to chat with you.

Caz Cusumano: Absolute pleasure.

Ian Paget: It's been really fun doing this. Thank you for your time.

Caz Cusumano: I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Take care.