Be an Expert, Not an Order Taker

Part 1: Designing a Brand Style Guide

Ian Paget: I’m aware that you’ve recently released a brand style guide template, which is very impressive.

I want to ask a few questions around this. So, my first question for you, why should designers create brand style guide for their customers?

Colleen Gratzer: That’s a great question. Well, creating a brand style guide is important for quite a few reasons. One is that it really sets up the client for success. So, you’ve just created this fabulous logo and possibly these other design elements associated with it, along with the colour scheme and typographical elements, right? Helping them understand what to do with them all. That helps them continue on with what you’ve just created.

The second thing is that it really adds value to the work that you do, which makes them perceive you as more of an expert. You can charge more for that. Another thing is that, it really demonstrates that branding is an investment. It’s not just about creating something that looks good and works for their business and their audience. It’s not a one-time thing, either. So, it’s really about continuing with those efforts.

I mean, if their branding isn’t consistent, because they aren’t sure what files to use for printing, let’s say, or they’re just picking colours haphazardly. That will kind of eat into, diminish the work that you’ve just done for them that they invested in. The designer or the client, nobody wants the client to end up mucking up the branding down the road. The clarity and consistency that they’ll get from that brand style guide, that builds trust with the client’s audience.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I believe a key part of a successful brand identity is consistency. So, there’s definitely real value in providing a style guide to your clients, so that they can ensure that everything is consistent. Would you be able to talk through what’s typically included in that document?

Colleen Gratzer: Sure. So, at an absolute minimum, in my opinion, a brand style guide really must have the typefaces that have been used in the logo. They’re going to be used for other materials. And then the colours, and the logo placement, and then the files of the logo that are being provided. I can explain why each of those is important.

Ian Paget: Sure.

Colleen Gratzer: Now, the typefaces especially if you’ve chosen, open source and open-type typefaces, like some of the Google fonts. Those are readily accessible to you and to them. They’re free, and they work on Mac and PC. There’s just no excuse not to use them. But I mean, who knows? For whatever reason at some point, they may not be available to the client or even to all of their staff members. I mean, maybe something comes up urgently and someone there is working from home on their home computer, and they don’t have that typeface installed. They don’t remember where to get it or whatever the situation is. So, it can really help to list acceptable alternatives to those typefaces in the guide too.

I mean, system fonts, just you know what system fonts would be acceptable, if they don’t have the preferred ones available. Or they might need to buy the typeface, in which case, you’ll need to tell them where to get it. They might decide not to, or they simply have staff who end up not using the typefaces because they don’t have access to them, like I was talking about earlier. I mean, you can always, suggest these things to them and put them in the guide. It’s, of course up to them, to put them into practice and follow them.

And then with colour, it’s so important to include all the values. I see so many designers not doing this, but I mean, I’m talking like four colour process and then the coated versus uncoated, and then Pantone colours and coated versus uncoated. I mean, some colours don’t shift much when printed on uncoated stock, but some really do. They can really make for a nasty surprise for the client. Nobody wants that. I mean, a lot of yellows, for instance, will look orange on uncoated stock, and then some darker blues look more purple. I mean, what if a client is printing a huge quantity of something that ends up in a completely different colour than they expected? What you showed them on screen looks different? Of course, it does.

So, one thing I have done when designing logos is send the client in the mail, some Pantone chips to show them how their colours will look on coated and uncoated stock and explain the difference. So, they’re not disappointed because I’ve even had a client once say, “Well, why isn’t this shiny or as vibrant as what you showed me?” It’s like, “Well, there’s a difference in the paper.” So, they don’t understand that.

I usually start with the Pantone coded colours, and then match everything to them. So, then I look up the CMYK values for coated and uncoated stock and I see if they match or not. If they’re really off, then I’ll spec a CMYK coated and a CMYK uncoated. And then I’ll do the hex and RGB values, as well. So, then the other thing that you’d want to include, as I said before, was the logo and how that gets placed. What comes as obvious to us definitely is not obvious to clients. So, showing which colour version to use on a certain background.

For instance, maybe they should use the reversed version of the logo on a dark background. Or maybe they should only use the full colour version of the logo on a light background. Or they shouldn’t use the reversed version over a photo. Of course, we don’t want them to scale it disproportionately, either. It will happen, you have to still point this out. We also wouldn’t want them to send a low-res web version to the printer.

So, one thing I do in addition to that is, I always list the files of the logos that I’m providing. I put them in folders and put like the high res ones in a folder called print and then up with the low-res ones in a folder called web. That will also have SVGs, and then medium res logo files for Word and PowerPoint purposes. So, I named them that, so they understand what they’re for.

What’s funny is that when I mentioned those logo files on my podcast one time, a couple designers reached out to tell me that they prefer that the client always come back to them for the logo vials, but frankly, I’m not interested in that. Sometimes clients need things last minute. I’d rather just have a guide that provides all that info, rather than them having to come to me all the time. They’ve got other designers and vendors that they’re going to be working with who need those files too.

Ian Paget: Yeah, well, I’m exactly the same. I think it’s good to provide a comprehensive kit of files, so that they do have everything that they need for different applications. Yeah, I don’t think is necessary to kind of let the client come back to you. I think that’s ridiculous. Give them what they need or the files that they need. That’s supporting use a guideline document you mentioned. So, they understand what they’re using.

Colleen Gratzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then like some other things. The guide, if it’s more extensive, it could also address non-visual elements, such as messaging and tone, and, like mission, vision, and values, that sort of stuff. So, I mean, it could be even more comprehensive, but if a client has a smaller budget, I mean, just give them the minimum for them to get by. But you can always do something more comprehensive, where their needs warranted.

Ian Paget: Something I wanted to ask you with brand guidelines documents is when you’re just creating the logo… I get this quite frequently because I have quite a few clients where I’ve only worked on the logo, but they might still come back to me wanting some kind of brand guidelines document. In those cases, it’s easy to work out. Document, things like the fonts and any of the colours used. So pretty much anything that’s within that logo because you’ve already created it.

But where it becomes a little bit more challenging is when you need to add supporting colours, supporting fonts, images, all the other things that you need to include to create for brand identity. In that scenario, how would you advise to go about working these things out? Because the way that I’ve always advise my clients to do this is that I always felt like I need to actually work on all of these things first, in order to include it in a brand guidelines document. So, for example, maybe creating a brochure or website. Something so that I have a playground to experiment with fonts and forms and photography, so that I can see how all these things kind of work together.

So, I think it’s better to work on that first, and then document it afterwards, so that other people can get involved in the brand and keep some kind of level of consistency across the board through all the different touch points. Would you advise that that’s the best way to go about doing this? Or are you able to create a guidelines document that has things like colour schemes, fonts, and stuff like that without having already worked on something?

Colleen Gratzer: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I mean, I have done it without designing other pieces. But I mean, I think it depends on how much you’re creating too, because I’ve seen style guide templates that are like really comprehensive. They’re talking about placing design elements in a certain position, say on brochure covers, like it’s a standard template, maybe they just change out the photos. So, there are situations like that, where yeah, you’re going to have to come up with a sample up front before you can do that. But in terms of like just choosing a secondary colour palette or discussing the types of imagery that’s going to work for the client.

If it’s photos versus illustrations, and then okay, what types of photos should we be looking for? What style of illustration should we be looking for? Those kinds of things could be done without having to do that additional work. But yeah, I mean, this is all about creating and setting the rules for their branding when you’re starting with a new logo. For a more extensive guide, you could add those other pieces. Even if a client already has a logo, they may not have a style guide. So, you could have a client that already has all of these elements together. And then you’re just creating a style guide based on what they’ve already got because they need that consistency because everything’s currently a hodgepodge, for example.

Ian Paget: Yeah. That’s where I really see the value of this type of thing is when you start to get more than one person involved in something, it does become a bit of a hodgepodge. Even if you are just one person working on it, you can still slip up and have inconsistency. I’ve worked at companies for like long periods of time. It’s funny how if you don’t document it, you can use a shade of colour, and then some point uses a slightly different colour. There’s that inconsistency. Brand style guides are there for that consistency. So, when there’s multiple people working on a project, you know exactly how it needs to be.

As well, it helps people understand… Like I’ve worked with a client recently. I’ve done the labor and packaging for them. I’ve recently pulled in someone else to work on the website. The images that the other person was using just didn’t fit with the style of it. I know if I was to have documented that in some way, it would have added a lot of value. I think that’s where it becomes valuable, is that you can share that whole vision of how it should look with other people and you get that consistency across the board.

Colleen Gratzer: Right. The more people that are potentially involved, like if you’ve got a client with multiple offices and locations. They’ve got a lot of staff. I mean, that guide is going to hold even more value for them. So, you can even charge more for that because it’s much more important for them to get like everybody on board.

Ian Paget: Absolutely. Whilst we’re on this topic, I want to mention it as well, but I’m not sure if you’re familiar with spirit books?

Colleen Gratzer: No?

Ian Paget: I remember reading about them in Alina Wheeler’s branding book, Designing Brand Identity which is fantastic book on branding. In her book, she mentioned about these spirit books. I was lucky enough to work with Lucozade at one point. They released this campaign called YES. We were given a book. I was totally amazed. It’s basically a hardback book, full of images, different paper stock, fonts, wording and stuff like that. It’s a little bit like a brand style guide, but it takes that one step further. So, if there’s campaigns out there that you’re working on, if you have big budgets like someone like Lucozade does, you can do these books too.

So rather than actually have like set in stone guidelines of “Use this font, use this.” It’s more like “This is the look and feel and the tone and edginess of what we’re trying to get across.” So, if anyone is working on brand guideline documents, spirit books is another level to that, so people can look into that.

Colleen Gratzer: Interesting.

Ian Paget: I wanted to ask you as well, I mentioned at the beginning that you do have your template for this. I haven’t seen that many templates out there. You recently created one. I mean, obviously people can create one themselves if they want to, but why I like what you’ve done is that it saves a lot of time. So, do you want to just quickly explain to people more about the guideline document template you’ve recently created, that people can purchase if they wanted something to start off with?

Colleen Gratzer: Sure. Well, as you said, brand style guides are a ton of work, especially when you have never done one before. You’ve got to write everything. Especially when you’re adding more than typefaces, and colours, and logo files. Coming up with the colour matches for Pantone and all the other stuff, that takes a lot of time as does listing out the file names after you organise the files. I found myself having to take portions of a style guide from a previous client that I had created, and then modifying the text and elements for the next client’s guide. It was just so much work. I mean, and that’s already like having done most of the writing.

So, I figured that other designers must be struggling with this. Why not make a template with all of these sections already set up, and then just modify what is needed for each client? Some clients may not be willing to pay more for a more extensive guide, so you just remove those sections. When I looked at what was already out there, I found that most of them had lorem ipsum text. They were fully designed and like very artistic. They weren’t so easily changeable to be specific to the client’s brand and elements and stuff. They also had limiting licenses, like they were either for personal use only or for only so many commercial uses.

So, I really saw the need to have something that was already written up, ready to go, because that’s part of the problem. The creative part, designing it to reflect the client’s branding. That’s the easy part. But knowing what sections to include, and what text to put in each one is really where you get the time savings. That really helps you show up as more of an expert to the client, because they’re going to expect that you know how to write this.

So, the template is available in two versions. There’s an essentials version and an ultimate one. The essentials one includes the sections on colour, typography and logo. And then, the ultimate version includes those two, but also expanded on in those sections. And then, it has additional sections for imagery, design elements, and stationery. And then, it also has suggestions for other sections that you could add in there that aren’t yet written up, but everything in there is already written up. You just have to substitute the client’s information, where it’s called for. There’s notes everywhere to tell you.

I’ve seen some brand style guides that were close to 80 pages, if not more than that. The ultimate version of the guide is definitely the foundation for a really comprehensive guide like that. That would be especially great for clients that have multiple offices and lots of staffs. Both of these templates are available in InDesign and Affinity Publisher and Google Slides. You get all three formats, because I know some designers have jumped ship from Adobe. Sometimes web designers and developers end up in this position while they’re just working on a website. They’re not likely using a page layout program.

So, my goal is really for designers to take this, and really up the ante as to what they offer and charge a heck of a lot more for this added value. It will pay for itself the first time that you use it. I mean, I’ve charged a minimum of $1,000 for creating a little bigger than smaller guide. I mean, that wasn’t even with the logo design. That was just creating the style guide.

Ian Paget: I know for me, with what you’ve done here today, I don’t have an actual template. But what I like to do with everything that I do is have templates and processes, so that when I do put anything together, it’s very quick. I mean, with branding manuals, I could sit down, and I could create my own. I could spend a day or two working on that.

Colleen Gratzer: At least.

Ian Paget: Or I can just purchase your one and use it straight from the outset. To be honest, in the time that it saves me I can make that money back and more. So, it’s cheaper for me and more cost effective to kind of get a template that’s really good, really solid. I mean, I can still make it my own. I can still modify it. It’s just easier, especially since you wrote a lot of the text and laid it all out. You got everything in there. I don’t need to research things. I don’t need to plan. It’s just there. For me, that’s where the value of it is and why I want to use that. Audience, members, if anyone doesn’t already provide this, it’s worth looking at products like this that have everything in already just to save you time.

Colleen Gratzer: Yeah, because they can change the text or whatever they like.

Ian Paget: Yeah, exactly.

Colleen Gratzer: Whatever suits the client and whatever wording they want to use, absolutely.

Ian Paget: Well, if anyone wants to check out Colleen’s Brand Style Guidelines, head to fiolentvillage.com/brand-style-guide. That’s an affiliate link. So, if you do purchase the product through that link, you support both Colleen and myself with the Logo Geek podcast as well.

At the moment, you can actually get 50% off with the code ‘march’. That’s through to April the 4th, 2020. So, I’ll include a link to that in the show notes as well for this episode. Again, if you do want to go and find that, fiolentvillage.com/brand-style-guide.

Part 2: Becoming an expert designer, rather than an order taker

Ian Paget: I want to spend the rest of the time we have talking through what you’re doing with Creative Boost, so your podcasting community. You’re helping quite a lot of freelancers and creators out there really level up. So, I’ve got quite a few questions around this. I know that it’s a topic that you’re quite excited to talk about.

Colleen Gratzer: Yes.

Ian Paget: So to start off the conversation, the first question I have is, designers can easily be seen as order takers. I’ve been in that place myself. So, someone will come to me, they have a very specific idea in mind. They just want me to create it. I’m sure other graphic designers get this exact same thing.

I think there’s a lot of people out there that think that’s what graphic designers do. You need to be order takers. Obviously, none of us really want to be in that situation. Maybe at the beginning, you’re totally okay with it. But when you get a little bit more experienced, you just don’t want to be in that position. You want to be seen as the expert that knows what you’re doing. That you can be approached to solve a problem and be trusted to find the most effective solution.

So, my question for you is, how do you go about going from, a puppet on a string to be seen as more of an expert to potential client?

Colleen Gratzer: Being the puppeteer? The puppet on the string to the puppeteer? Yeah, it’s a great question. Oh, I have so many things to say about this. I mean, this topic always lights me up because I’ve lived it. I’ve gone from one end of the spectrum to another. I’ve been in this industry for 23 years. I have realised that you’re definitely going to be treated the way that you show up.

If you think that you can’t charge more, if you don’t believe the value of your work, if you let the client dictate the sales process and the design process, then you will always be perceived as the order taker. Who’s running your business? Are they running your business or you running your business? You will have a miserable business, if you let the client lead. The expert leads their business and the order taker is waiting to help with anything and everything. Again, I’ve been there, done that. So, I’m speaking from experience here.

A lot of this stems from mindset issues and self-limiting beliefs. I mean, they affect everything in your business. Blair Enns said, “When you think like the expert, you will behave like the expert.” It’s so true. It’s got to come from within. It’s the way you show up in your business, how you talk to clients more confidently, how you present your work, what you’re willing to put up with, and even the type of client that you attract. It all changes when you adjust your mindset.

But you can’t just like flip a switch and do that, right? You have to figure out where it’s coming from. But I want to get into some things that designers can do to position them better as the expert.

The first thing is you’ve got to change the conversation. When a client comes to you asking for the price of a logo, or a brochure, or website, or whatever it is, don’t give them the price yet. I mean, you can’t. You could give them a starting at price, later in the conversation, sure. But if you don’t want your work to be seen as a commodity, it starts with you. So, don’t act like it’s a commodity. Otherwise, they’re just stepping up to the counter. They’re asking for that burger and soda and you’re like, “Would you like fries with that?” When they come to you asking for the deliverable, you need to find out what the underlying problem is that they’re looking to solve. Because design is all about solving a problem. You don’t yet know what’s behind that request until you ask the questions.

So first ask them, why? Why do they need this logo? What does it need to do for them? And then, you will find out the problem they’re trying to solve. Nobody wants a logo, a brochure, or website just to have one. Maybe they come to you, and they say they need a more professional looking presence. But maybe a new brochure is not going to be the answer to that. It’s a branding problem they might have. As the expert, you can have that conversation instead of just handing over a price for a brochure or whatever it is. Something else is how you present the work. Most designers don’t actively present work.

I did this early on too, but things changed when I was presenting it in person or getting them on the phone, and then emailing it to them, or making a Loom video, and emailing it, or doing a video call and presenting it then. What this does is it gives you the opportunity to explain how your design decisions make sense for what they’re trying to accomplish. If they have any objections, you’re able to take them into consideration, or nip them in the bud as to why such and such wouldn’t work.

If they say, “Well, I don’t like the blue, try purple.” You can say, “We’re creating this for your audience to attract to them. This isn’t about anybody’s personal preferences.” But if you’re designing something, and the client is like, “Why did you choose this colour?” And you say, “I like it.” That turns design into a subjective matter.

As does asking and I know you covered this on a podcast episode (How to Ask for Logo Design Feedback), what do you think? The client will be thinking, “Wait a minute, aren’t you the expert? Why are you asking me what I think?” When that happens, the client starts playing art director, and now they’re the expert. You just gave up all your power and then they start cherry picking from this design and that one. It just results in a mess and you get farther from where you started.

I used to say to them, “You might love that red oriental rug in your living room, and that chevron pattern chair in the family room, and the Moroccan style lamp from your bedroom. But when you put them together in the same room, they don’t work. It’s just a mess.” So, presenting without asking them what they think helps them understand everything in the design has to work together. Again, it keeps them from cherry picking.

Everything should always go back to the brief in solving the problem. That also keeps it objective. Something else a lot of designers do that is more order taker behaviour is not getting money and a signed contract up front. I see this all the time in Facebook groups. So many designers don’t do this. And then they come back and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, what do I do?” I mean, you’ve got to get money up front, a certain percentage is fine. You’ve got to get that signed contract. This is normal business practice. If you think you can’t do that, let me tell you, the experts, this is what they do. When you don’t ask for money and a signed contract up front, it seems like you’re not serious, like you’re not a professional.

And then something else is being at a client’s beck and call. I mean, I see designers that are letting clients call their cell phones, and then email them and text them. I guess everybody’s using a cell phone nowadays. I’m using a landline, but I don’t let clients contact me like five different ways. I mean, it would be maddening for me. I would go nuts. It’s like limited hours. When are they allowed to contact you? They can contact you whenever they want, but when are you going to get back to them. Setting expectations. This is how I want you to communicate with me, and this is when you can expect to hear back from me.

Again, let me tell you, I’ve been guilty of all of these things at some point in my business. So, I understand just how incredibly frustrating it is to experience these things, because you don’t feel respected. Sometimes there’s just an underlying reason for mindset issues that you have to address to really get over these issues. I mean, in my case, it was dealing with constant criticism growing up, I mean, heck, even into adulthood.

I was bullied in school too. So, there was always like this, you’re not good enough or what you’re doing isn’t good enough. I guess it diminished myself. Well, it definitely diminished my self-esteem. And then it’s like when you are in that position, even that you’re confident about your work and your skills, when you’re talking to clients, you’re letting them push you around. You’re letting them bully you.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Can I just add, a lot of what you’re saying as well, one of the challenging things with implementing it is you can’t just change one thing. When we’re talking about, for example, presenting based on objectives. So, we’ve understood what the challenges is. You sold that through your work, and then you’re presenting based on that. You can’t just present based on that if you haven’t worked out what that is. In terms of selling in that way, you can’t really sell in that way unless you presented yourself in that way through your website, your marketing materials, and so on.

So, I think that’s probably one of the more challenging things. It’s not one thing. It’s kind of like, once you’ve kind of learned that this is how you can be perceived as an expert. You then need to apply it to everything that you’re doing from that. I guess, your website, your marketing material, whatever you’re doing through the way that you communicate, in speech your client through to the way that you initially do those, discovery calls, run through the entire process, down to the presentation, how you supply it. I mean, obviously, mindset is one of the biggest things.

I’ve mentioned that when I spoke to Col Gray recently. He mentioned about confidence and I agree with that. That is one of the big things. Because it needs to run through everything that you’re doing, it can be daunting, but I think it’s the way to go. If you don’t want to be an order taker or a puppet on a string, which a lot of designers do at the beginning. I’ve been there, you’ve been there. There’s probably listeners thinking now, “God I’ve done that,” or “I’m there now.” To take it to that next level, you need to go through and kind of evaluate everything that you’re doing.

How would you advise the starting point to do that? Because the way that I would do it is update my marketing material first, and then go from there. So, the first client that calls you. That’s when you can change the way that you’re selling. And then you can do everything in ad hoc for that first client, and then the next one, you can follow that same process.

Colleen Gratzer: Right. It’s all about having a good, solid, consistent online presence. I mean, if you’re going to be doing any kind of branding work for clients, you’ve got to make sure your stuff is top notch and on point, right? You can’t be talking about brand consistency, and reasons for good branding if you don’t have that. That discredits you. So, consistency is key there too. Like I said, policies and processes, professionals have policies and processes. “Here’s how I work.” They’re not letting the client dictate any part of that process. “This is how I work. If you want to work with me, this is how it is.” Those are the people that get a lot more respect. Unfortunately, that’s how it is. I mean, that’s what happens.

But, yeah, you’ve really got to change your behaviours. Like you said, as soon as you change your behaviours before you change your mindset. But yeah, when you change your behaviours, you’re going to change how you allow yourself to be treated. Again, that will, attract a certain type of clients. So even if you haven’t made the mindset switch yet, it can still start working for you. It’s going to be a progression.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you made a really good point that I didn’t really think about because I just do it anyway. But having a set-in stone process sets you down that way of working as a professional. Because what I do with every client that calls me, I say, “Would you like me to talk to through how I usually work on a project?” Because it’s the way that I work on project, I talk through what happens at what stage, what they’re going to receive. I can also predict timescales and stuff like that. So, if we’re talking about turnaround times, I say typically this part of the process takes this length of time.

If you don’t already have processes, what Colleen said then is absolutely fundamental that you add that in there. You begin working as a professional. You don’t have to have a linear process, but I think presenting that you have that step-by-step process, that you run through this particular system. I think that sets you from the outset as the expert. Yeah, like I said, when it comes down to things like sales calls, you can have that conversation and confidently talk through how you typically work.

Colleen Gratzer: Right, and something else too. I’ve seen this many, many times, is that designers don’t check their work. I mean, if they are laying out a publication or working on a brochure, they don’t always go back and check their work. Let me tell you early on in my career, I mean, I’m very OCD about that stuff, but I’m sure it wasn’t always that way. But I’ve remembered a couple instances early on in my career, where I’d send something to a client, it’s like, “Well, you forgot to include this,” or, something like that. It just made me feel like so bad. It’s like, “I should have picked up on that. I should have noticed that. I should have just checked my work.” You don’t want the client to feel like they need to babysit you. “Well, you didn’t make this edit on this draft and you didn’t include this. You left out this logo.”

Check your work. I mean, it saves so much time, like nobody needs to be nagged by the client. They shouldn’t have to be doing the nagging. I mean, it’s not going to be perfect, and there’s going to be stuff that just happens. But when you take that extra effort, that really like extends your professionalism.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I actually read through everything three or four times now. We used to have this problem in a job that I had about 10 years ago. We once did a catalog. It was like 200 pages, and we had so many people proofread it. They even did a competition around the company for anyone could find mistakes in this. We gave them like a couple hundred pounds or something. It was amazing how many errors came back. But anyways, one thing that I learned from doing this is when you read, you can skip over words without realising because you’re reading through it. Sometimes, you can actually have letters completely in the wrong order. Your brain processes what that word is.

So, what I find worth doing – it’s hundreds of thousands of words, it’s harder to do, but if you’ve done a small document that’s got a few paragraphs, read each word individually, and check it backwards as well, just to make sure. I find it beneficial to print it out and go through. But look at each word individually, and even read it backwards just to make sure it’s correctly. And then you’d never miss or you’re quite unlikely to miss a spelling mistake.

Colleen Gratzer: Well, I actually used to offer proofreading because clients would hire copy editors and I would often find mistakes that they missed. Of course, I wasn’t the one that had looked at four drafts or whatever, but already. So, to me, it was fresh, but I used to actually do that.

Ian Paget: I’m paranoid about it, because when I was in school in college, I was picked up that had dyslexia. I don’t think I did. I think there’s more inner laziness growing up as a kid, not reading the books, and doing my homework like I should have been doing. It’s writing and words, voice has been a struggle for me.

Even though now, I can write quite well, I mean that’s taken time to kind of hang down those skills, but you are right. For me, it’s quite easy to make a mistake in my writing. So, it’s worth proofreading, checking, double checking more than once.

It’s the same of emails, everything that you’re doing. So many people send emails that are incorrect. Just re-read your email even if it’s two or three times, like I have to.

Colleen Gratzer: I forgot about the emails. I’m glad you brought that up, because that’s another thing. I mean, for crying out loud, spell somebody’s name right too.

Ian Paget: Yeah, absolutely. Moving on to another question that I want to speak to you about. There’s quite a high demand out there for graphic designers. If you’re looking for work, being honest, I think it’s relatively easy to find someone that needs a graphic designer. If he was happy to take in a small amount of money, it’s easy to find someone that utilise your skills.

But the real challenge is finding those clients out there that have money for starters, have a good understanding of branding, and have a high respect for graphic design. So, I guess what I would describe as a high-quality client which is the type of client or design this one. How would you approach going about finding these high-quality clients?

Colleen Gratzer: You’ll attract what you’re putting out there. So, some of that goes back to mindset. Like we were talking earlier, make sure your professional presence online, your website, social media accounts, and any printed materials that you might have, that they’re consistent, and the design is tailored to your audience. What I mean by that is, if you like script typefaces, and you use that for your logo, but you’re trying to attract corporate type clients, that says to them, you don’t understand them. So, you want to design for your audience as much as you’re telling clients, “Oh, we need to design for your audience.” I don’t think it’s necessarily only certain clients that appreciate good designer branding. I think it’s more changing the way that it’s all perceived.

It’s not art. It’s solving a business problem and some clients don’t see it that way. But when you frame the conversation that way, and how design and branding can help their bottom line, they’ll sit up and listen. Suddenly, that’s an investment and it’s not an expense. This will help you stand out too. But posting on social media, posting on your blog, talking about these client’s problems, how you solved them, what their problems are. That’s going to get you noticed, because it’s taking the focus off design and solving the problem. Everyone else is talking about, “Okay, you need a brochure. Okay, how many pages? Is it going to be full colour? Is it going to be on glossy stock?” I mean, it’s taking the focus off that deliverable and putting it on the business problem that you’re helping solve.

Ian Paget: You mentioned then about when you speak with your client about… Can’t remember exactly how you said it. But you mentioned about changing the bottom line, so they understand that by investing in this, they’re going to make money from it. If someone’s coming to you and they need a catalog, for example, how are you going about speaking to them in a way so that they do transition from, I guess, coming to you with an order, like, “I want a 10-page brochure, blah, blah, blah.” How are you changing that conversation, so they are understanding that they’re going to increase the value of the business, they’re going to do X, Y, and Z profit? In order for them to understand that they need to invest a higher amount of money in that thing.

Colleen Gratzer: That’s a perfect example because I actually had a client who came to me for publication layout. They’re like, “We hate the design of this publication. Like dealing with it, it’s very hard to read.” They were talking about all the cosmetic stuff, right? All visual stuff. So, I was like, “What do you want to do with this publication? What do you want it to do for you?” They were talking about, “Well, we would really like it to be more reader friendly.” I’m like, “Okay, why do you want to be more reader friendly?” I mean, of course, I can understand why. I mean, it kind of sounds silly, because I know the answer. Of course, you want it to be reader friendly, right? But there’s got to be something else where that’s going. So, I dig deeper.

It’s like, eventually I get to them saying, “We want to be able to increase our sales of this publication, to be more consistent with like the sales we have with our other publications.” I’m like, “Okay, great.” So now, it’s not just about the look of the publication. It’s not like, “Well, we just can’t live with the look of this anymore. We just want a new design.” So now we have a business problem. We’ve gotten to the business problem. So, I said, “Okay, great. So, I’m going to charge you this much money for a publication on it. We’ll have a deep dive consultation before we do the audit, right?”

So, I said, “Okay, it’s going to be this much. We’ll set a date and have a deep dive consultation with this. And then we will go back to look at the publication. We’ll actually like audit the publication.” Like, “Here’s what we think needs to change in the publication in order to meet those objectives that we’ve just discussed here. And that we’ll find out more about in the deep dive consultation.” Fabulous. They were like, “Love that. That’s great.” Did that, gave them the report telling them what we would change, and they said, “Great, how much is it to do the work now?”

Ian Paget: So that consultation that you did, was that a cost to the client? So, they paid you for that consultation?

Colleen Gratzer: Oh, yes.

Ian Paget: That’s amazing. Because I guess what a lot of people would do, what I would probably end up doing is… Well, being completely transparent is I would try to understand that in that initial telephone call. I wouldn’t realise that I could sell that as potential products, so that you can gain that understanding, and then turn that into a product. I guess, it’s a little bit like doing branch strategy. When someone comes to you for the strategy, work out exactly what’s needed. And then following up from there, that’s when you could say, “Okay, this is what you need. This, this and this.”

Colleen Gratzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly.

Ian Paget: Do you get much pushback with that type of thing?

Colleen Gratzer: I haven’t been.

Ian Paget: Ok, I would never thought of offering that consultation at that point. Because they come to you, they need the book redesigned. I would probably scope out cost of redesigning it, rather than having that initial audit. But I guess that changes. It turns you into the expert, like you said, because you’re charging to understand what that problem is. So that you can diagnose what actually needs fixing, and then you can price up an actual solution, rather than just doing what they say.

Colleen Gratzer: Right. They have in the house designers. They could have said, “Okay, thanks for the consultation and the audit and the report. We’ll go ahead and have our in-house designers do this.” But they didn’t, they had us do the redesign.

Ian Paget: Earlier, when we’re talking about being the expert, you also mentioned about finding out that why. Would you mind talking through how that conversation would go? Say, for example, when someone does come to you. They say they need a logo, so they come to you, “We need our logo redesigned?” How does that conversation go when you work with clients to kind of establish what that why is?

Colleen Gratzer: Yes. I mean, in the first call, I get into like what their goals are. Asking them, why do they need this? What are you trying to do with it? What is your goal, right? So, I just keep asking why? Why is that important? Why are you reaching out at this time? Why is this important now? When I first started asking these questions, I’m like, “Well, I’m sure I could just answer these in my head.” But you really want them to say it. Because when they say it, they’re giving you the whole creative brief right there. That’s what you can then say, “When we talked about this earlier, this is what you said. This is where you want to go with it. This is what your goals are. This is how this design of this new logo is going to help you.”

I mean, like I said earlier, it’s like, nobody’s coming to you for a logo, or a brochure, or website just for a new logo, brochure, or website. There’s an underlying reason that they’re asking, so just keep asking why. I mean, you could look at their logo. Maybe it’s horrendous and you’re like, “Of course, they need a new logo”, right? But why do they need a new logo? They might say, “Well, we need to we need to compete better and stand out more from our competitors. They look more modern than we do. We look like we’re antiquated. So, we need a new look,” or “We need to reach a new audience.” Maybe they are trying to reach a different demographic, so they need to rebrand.

So, understanding all of that, understanding these business problems… It doesn’t matter what the deliverable is, whether it’s a logo, a publication, whatever, go back to the why. Just keep asking, “Okay, why do you need this? Why do you need this now? What would this do for you? What kind of success do you want to have from this?” Just keep asking why.

Ian Paget: Yeah, that’s really solid advice. It sounds so obvious now you pointed out. You’re right. It’s important to really understand what that why is. And then, you can really solve their problem, rather than, I guess, create something that could potentially be quite surface level. One question that does come to mind with that is, say if the clients come to you and they requested a quote for a logo, but through that conversation you’ve diagnosed that they actually need something entirely different that’s potentially outside of their budget. Would you put together a proposal for both of these? Say within that, you include like a cost for a logo, and maybe the other thing that they actually need to solve their problem?

Colleen Gratzer: Well, you always want to talk money upfront because professionals talk money upfront. You don’t want to spend days or weeks, coming up with a proposal, if they don’t have the budget or expectation of cost, if they’re not in alignment with what you would charge. I’ll always ask their budget in the first call or I’ll word it as ‘budget or expectation of cost’, because if they don’t have a budget, that’s not my problem. They might not have a budget, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not willing to pay for it. But if they say, “Well, I’m looking to have this done for $100.” Well, okay, bye bye.

But if they’re like, “Well, we really don’t know what this should cost. How much should it cost? What are some price ranges?” I’ll be like, “Look, this is like talking about buying a car, building a house. Are we in the $500-range here? Are we in a $5,00- range? Are we in the $50,000-range? Like, where are we, so I can tailor something to align what I would charge with where your expectations are.” The other thing, too, is that they’re coming to you, assuming they know what their problem is.

After discussing something with them, you can be like, “Oh, yeah, so their issue really isn’t a brochure. It’s a logo. They really need to rebrand.” I don’t know that I would actually say that on the call, or maybe I would, but I would definitely put it in a proposal. It’s kind of like putting lipstick on a pig. You can’t continue throwing money at the wrong problem. You’ve got to address the core issue. Maybe I went off on a tangent there. Did that answer your question?

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, absolutely. So, in terms of when you are asking about the money, how soon are you asking that? Because I mean, obviously, you’re having that conversation with the client, you’re trying to understand why. You realise that actually, they don’t need what they come to you for, they need a larger thing. At what point would you actually go about asking that money question which you just mentioned? Expectations of cost or budget, would you ask it straight out front?

Colleen Gratzer: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. If you don’t feel comfortable asking that, you can always throw it in with another question. You can be like, “Okay, what are your budget and timeframe for this?’

Ian Paget: That’s a good way of doing it.

Colleen Gratzer: You could do that. It’s kind of like you’re bundling it with another question, but I mean, yeah, but I asked it right away, I’m always asking what are their goals? Why now? Why do you need this work? What is your budget and timeframe? And then I’m not going to go any deeper in that first call. That’s just a screening call. I used to ask so many more questions. It was almost like I was doing discovery for free. That’s what most designers are doing, too. They’re asking so many questions on the first call. So, a few years ago, I was like, “I’m not asking these other questions. I’m putting that all in the kickoff call.” So that’s the only stuff I’m asking upfront.

Ian Paget: Cool. Like you said about if you need to have a more in depth understanding, like the book you mentioned about having the actual initial consultation in the beginning. You didn’t price the book enough for that as a product, rather than trying to do that in the sales call. I never really thought about doing that. I know obviously, when doing something larger, like creating a whole strategy. That’s easy to work out as a product. I guess, it’s like a scoping exercise, charging out for a scoping exercise to understand exactly what needs to be done. So that you can then work out how much is going to cost. Like them paying you to understand how much it cost is for me, it’s a bit of a game changer. Yes.

Colleen Gratzer: Just do it. It works out and you’ll love it.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We nearly done an hour, so I’m going to throw in one last question.

Colleen Gratzer: Sure.

Ian Paget: So, design is are very competitive landscape. There’s thousands of other designers out there. What can designers do to stand out?

Colleen Gratzer: Two things major. That is what we’ve covered with the questions. Ask those questions because most designers are not asking those questions. The clients coming to you, and they’re just expecting you to say, “Okay, this is how much it’s going to cost.” The designers that are setting themselves apart as experts are the ones that are asking, “Why do you need this? What kind of budget do you have? What are your goals?” All those questions that we talked about. If you talk online, social media accounts, on your blog, wherever, and you just talk about those problems, it takes the focus off the deliverables. All the other designers are talking about deliverables. They’re not talking about solving the problem.

Another thing is when you’re talking to clients, whether it’s online or on the phone, is talk about the work that you want to get. Don’t talk about everything, because then you just get lumped in their minds as every other designer, like you’re that blade of grass in the field. You won’t be memorable. But when you talk about something that you’re doing all the time… Like everybody knows you, Ian, for logos, right? You talk about logos all the time. You have a group about it. You have a podcast called Logo Geek. I mean, people remember you for that, right?

I talked about accessibility a lot. I mean, I talk about that all the time with my client-based business, so I get that kind of work. I’ve become known as a specialist for that. So, you always want to talk about the work that you want. Don’t feel like you have to be the jack of all trades. Everybody else has been the jack of all trades.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I learned this lesson quite early on. I’ve worked a lot in web design-

Colleen Gratzer: You have? I’m so surprised. I have no idea.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I’ve worked for agencies for years working on web design. There was a point in my career where I wanted to transition over to print-based work. I went for an interview; I took my portfolio. Obviously, I thought the right thing to do is put in my portfolio all the best work I’ve done. I went to this print based design agency job.

One of the first things she said when she was looking through my portfolio was “Oh, we’d love to be doing more of this [web design] type of work.” I’m thinking, “No, I want to do the print stuff…!??” It just made me realise that what you show is what people think that you can do. You’re going to get more of the type of work that you show.

So, I don’t show any of the web design work, or the animation work that I’ve done, or any illustrations or… I’ve done so many things in my career, but all I show online now is logo design. By sharing that, you attract more than that. I think that’s what graphic designers need to understand, is you don’t show all your best work.

If you’ve done something for a big company, it happens to be something. Don’t just include it in your portfolio, because it’s a big company. Take out anything that is not relevant. Only show the type of work that you want. For me, that literally changed my life. When people come to me, they want the type of work I want. It’s amazing.

Colleen Gratzer: I see all these designers. I mean, god bless them. I see all these designers talking in Facebook groups about “Well, I’ve got to go learn this other skill. Well, I already know HTML. I already know CSS. Now I’m going to learn JavaScript. I’m going to learn this.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, stop being a slave.” This was a long time ago; I saw this post by this person. He was saying,” Well, I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this. What else might a client asked me for that I should be able to do?” I’m thinking, “No, you need to take the opposite direction. The train has derailed. Stop, stop, go the opposite direction.”

Everybody else is doing that. Focus on one thing and get known for that. It doesn’t mean that you have to say no to other work. Like if you design a logo, Ian, and a client’s like “Now, I want a website.” If you feel like it, you can be like, “Heck yeah, I’ll take that.” But you don’t have to do.

Ian Paget: I do lots of things. I’m working on clients on packaging, and getting stuff in stores. I just don’t show it.

Colleen Gratzer: Yeah, exactly.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I always see what you promote is  just the starting point. Once you work with a client, if they like working with you, then obviously, you can work on other stuff. But it’s just about getting known for something. What you said about people wanting to learn new stuff. I found by specialising, there’s a lot more to a single topic than you can possibly ever imagine. I’ve been studying logo design for the last eight years. I’ve read almost every single book. There are still holes in my knowledge on the topic, and I’m still learning stuff, not every day, but frequently that I wasn’t aware of.

The deeper you go into a topic, the more questions that you end up having and the more that you want to investigate. I’ve been amazed just by doing a podcast. I’ve done over 70 interviews now. I see no end to like the topics I can cover, the conversations I can have. Because just one niche topic, there’s so much that you can learn.

Colleen Gratzer: Right. When you dive really deep into a particular type of work or even a type of niche, like even a certain industry, it’s so much easier to… I’m going to say this in air quotes, “sell the client”. Because you have that specific knowledge that can help them, and you understand them, and you understand their needs. I mean, if you’re always scrambling around, trying to learn something new all the time, oh, my goodness, that’s a lot of effort. I did it, okay, I’ve done that. It is miserable. There’s always going to be something. That’s not going to be productive.

If it’s not productive, it’s not going to be profitable for you. If you want to get a hobby and go learn website design… Like if you’re a print designer, and you want to like learn web site design, great, but you could also do that as a hobby. You don’t have to focus your business around accepting everything.

Ian Paget: Yeah, yeah. I think as well, if he was to choose a topic, like say if it was logo design, I could then focus on… I’m going to use schools as an example because a friend of mine, Craig, he works in schools. You can learn more not just about design, but about an industry as well. So, by working with schools and niche in schools, Craig understands them inside out. He’s got a true knowledge on schools. So, he knows exactly what they need. He knows how they work. He knows how to have those conversations because he has a knowledge of school. So, when he’s having a conversation with them, he understands what they’re doing inside out. He just happens to be doing a graphic design for that particular niche.

Colleen Gratzer: Right, and it makes your marketing easier. Because when you’re writing blog posts or you’re writing something on social media or whatever, whatever you’re putting out there, you’ve got to know who you’re talking to. Like, my client business has been focused around nonprofits. I remember at one point on my website, I’m like, “Well, but I also have clients that are small businesses.” If I was speaking to them, I would always be like, “your organisation/business.” It’s like, this is so ridiculous. Like, I need to like pick one and really focus on it.

Nonprofits have different needs from businesses, as like schools have… They have their own unique needs. I mean, I can’t talk to nonprofits about… I mean, they could have a product, but I generally wouldn’t be talking to them about sales and products. I would be talking them about donations. I’d use different terms.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Colleen Gratzer: If you’re talking to corporations, you’d be talking about shareholders. I mean, there’s going to be different language that you use. When you are speaking their language, they see that and then they are like, “You’re the person for us to work with because you got us.” It’s a shoo-in.

Ian Paget: Absolutely. People should focus on being an expert, not being an order taker, like you mentioned. Niching down is taking it to that next level, because you can really understand the client, and you can speak on their level, and promote on that level. So, I think this podcast alone, there’s so much advice that people can take to really level up their skills. Become the expert, and hopefully charge more for their work as well.

I think we could talk all day. We’ve done over an hour now. So, I think I’ll wrap up the interview. But if anyone does want to like, learn more from you, they can check out your podcasts and you got a Facebook group as well. I’ll link to all of that in the show notes, so that people can find it. But Colleen, thank you so much for coming on.

Colleen Gratzer: Thank you.

Ian Paget: It’s been great to chat. I knew that we could probably speak for another number of hours. So, I’ll probably have to get you on the podcast at a later date.

Colleen Gratzer: I’d love to. I mean, it’s been an honour to be on.

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