Becoming Logo Geek: An interview with Ian Paget

Mark Des Cotes: Well, Ian, I know this is a little bit of turning the tables on you. I would like to welcome you to the Logo Geek Podcast.

Ian Paget: Thank you, Mark. This is going to be a little bit weird being interviewed for my own show, but thank you so much for originally coming up with the idea. I think it's a perfect way to celebrate 100 episodes.

Mark Des Cotes: Yeah, and what a milestone that is. Let me be the first one to congratulate you on 100 episodes. I don't know if your listeners realise this, but the majority, or I don't know if it's actually the majority, but a huge number of podcasts out there never make it past episode 10. They actually say that the average lifespan of a podcast is between seven and 13 episodes. So the fact that you've made it to 100 episodes is quite a feat in. So congratulations.

Ian Paget: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. It's been a lot of work over the years and I can totally understand why most podcasts just do a few episodes because it really is an extortion amount of work. I just got into the routine of it now and I really enjoy doing it. I get a lot from doing them. Like you, as a podcaster, it just becomes part of your weekly routine. I don't see any end in sight of doing this podcast or even other podcasts in the future. I really enjoy the platform.

Creativity as a young child

Mark Des Cotes: Well, I'm very happy to hear that and I'm sure your listeners, Ian, are very happy to hear that as well. I want to start off, I know we're going to get into the whole Logo Geek and all that, but I want to go back a little bit further and find out who Ian is. When you were a young child, were you a creative person?

Ian Paget: When I was quite young, I always did drawing, model making. I was the type of kid that enjoyed watching things like Blue Peter and Art Attack and stuff like that, and actually making the things from it. Any competition that would come on the TV, I would enter it. I actually had my stuff on TV a couple of times.

Mark Des Cotes: Nice.

Ian Paget: In school, they used to do Pantomimes, and they would do these competitions to design the tickets for the Pantomimes. Quite frequently, I won those. It was something that I really, really enjoyed doing drawing. I always hoped that one day I'd be able to use those skills as a job. Luckily, I eventually got there.

Mark Des Cotes: At what point in your young life did you realise that your artistic talents could be used as a job?

Ian Paget: I remember in secondary school. So around the age of like 15, 16 the teachers, they would start to suggest, "Have you ever considered working in graphic design?" Or, "Have you ever considered doing this?" I knew that it was something that I could potentially have done, but it wasn't a direction I thought I could actually go. The reason for that is... and I don't know how much you know about my family and the audience.

I'm the youngest of quite a big family. On my dad's side, my dad had four children, my mum had four children. They met later in life, they had my sister and then me. So I am the youngest of 10 children. I have a brother that has a daughter that's older than me. That's how much the age difference is.

My dad's generation was the type of generation where they just got on with it. They just worked, and university wasn't really an option for them. It was always something that was seen as a high expense. None of my other brothers and sisters went to university and I just never saw it as an option.

Even though early on, I acknowledge that doing something in design would have been something that I would like to potentially have done, I actually didn't think I would ever be doing that. I thought maybe I would be working in a supermarket or... I didn't really know what I was doing. Even though people suggested going into art, design or anything like that, I genuinely didn't think I would ever make it.

The first design job without a design degree

Mark Des Cotes: So the whole design career was something you actually stumbled upon a little bit later then?

Ian Paget: Yeah, I felt like I got lucky, to be honest. How I actually got into it. I went to school, I went to college. College, what you can do is up to the age of 18 in the UK and you can go on to further education and that's what I call university. That's the type of thing that you need to pay for yourself. I did all of the free education that you could in the UK.

My very first job after college was 'kind of' related to design. I ended up finding a job that was as a print finisher. So it wasn't doing the graphic design, it was doing the stuff after the graphic design. This company was a really small print based company. What they would do is they were famous for doing exhibition work, say a three by three, four by four popup systems, this is what they used to call them.

What my job was, as an assistant to this one other guy, we would take the rolls of printed material, run through these encapsulation machines, cut it all out and get it all set up so that they could be used as these roll up, pop-up systems. If you can imagine there was like this framework that these panels would go on to, you tend to see them at exhibitions a lot. That was like my first introduction to graphic design.

I'd never actually met a graphic designer prior to that, but there was two guys, they worked in this little room, they would do a little bit of graphic design work and they would press print. Then we would take that. But how I actually got a graphic design job eventually was a little bit of luck to be honest.

That job, and I got that when I was 18. So it was the first job I ever got. I used to ride a moped because it was quite far from where I lived. At that time I live with my parents. I had an accident on that little bike and I basically couldn't get to that company anymore. Well, I managed to for a while, one of the guys would come and pick me up and take me there. I could have got another bike, but I just felt uncomfortable riding on a moped again after having an accident on it.

I quit that job and I got the first job that I could, and it was just to keep me going. This was actually a warehouse job and it just happened to be where my best mate worked. This company was just down the road from where I lived, so I could walk there in 20 minutes. So it was an ideal temporary solution. I never really thought anything of it. I just thought, "This is just a job, just to keep me going."

Because I had the other jobs still, I ended up having my interview later in the day. So it was around 6:00 PM, which is quite late for an interview. The warehouse manager, who would typically have interviewed me, wasn't there. I got interviewed by his manager. I recall saying to her that I would one day like to work in graphic design or something creative, but this is a nice way for me to be able to build up team building skills. I remember saying something like that.

Even though I didn't think much of it at the time, and I didn't really see myself as a confident person, she did write down on this piece of paper, "Confident." She acknowledged that I was interested in graphic design. I got that job, and I actually, surprisingly, enjoyed working in a warehouse and I didn't think I would.

Long story short, what happened in this job, I quickly got promoted to a team leader. I got my forklift truck license. I was progressing really quickly in this job. One day the CEO of the company came down, and he walked up to me and said, "Ian, well, you're quite good at drawing, aren't you?" I'm like, "Yes." He went, "Okay." Then and just walk to... I had no idea what this meant. It was a very unusual situation, but I didn't think anything of it.

Then, I can't remember if it was the same day or if it was a few days afterwards, but one of the ladies came down from the office and she said, "Ian, can I have a word with you?" She basically offered me a three-week trial position in the office team within a department that was called, Product Support and Education.

What that team did it was a lot of admin stuff. So booking hotels for the sales team. But there was a small part of that job, and it was the reason why they was interested in me, a small part that was doing posters. This was a medical company. What that team would do is help the sales team sell the product. So they was the team also responsible for doing all of the marketing literature.

Working in a warehouse, I used to look at that literature because it was part of the stock checks. I used to always wonder, "How did they do these really smooth lines on these illustrations?" I used to really look at it and ask questions. I ended up getting that job. I was very nervous and quite quiet, and I wasn't very good on the phone, but what I was good at was making the leaflets.

The first ones I did, I'd never touched a Mac before. I didn't know any of the software, but I found QuarkXPress relatively self-explanatory, I found Illustrator relatively self-explanatory again, but what I was able to do was go home, and there was no YouTube then, but I was able to find Lynda learning CDs and watch through those.

I was in this incredible position where I was really fascinated by graphic design. I would go to work, get stuck with something, go home, find out how to do it, go in the next day, do it, and gradually start building up a body of work.

In that job, something I didn't realise, what that team would do is they would design the literature, but only plan it. They would plan it and then outsource it to a freelance designer. I didn't know that.

When I got my first project, which was literally a double-sided, A4 leaflet, I was able to do all myself with a little bit of help, by asking questions and so on. That was the first piece of literature that they ever did completely in-house without needing to use an external resource.

I was in this great position where they saw potential for cost savings, I think. They didn't say that to me directly, but looking back now that was the obvious thing.

Mark Des Cotes: Obviously.

Ian Paget: I was on minimum wage. What they did is they had a partnership with a local print company so that I could learn. I got accepted to be in that job full time. Then they arranged these six afternoon sessions with the print company. I would just write down question after question. Every session I'd go there and I'd find out as much as I could.

That's basically how my graphic design career started. I was learning on the job and thankfully I got better.

Because they could see potential, they started to invest in that team. So we got photography equipment, lighting equipment, training on grid systems. We eventually, that team, what started off as like 10% graphic design, it evolved very quickly. They ended up getting another graphic designer and we became the in house graphic design team for the company. Yeah, it was great opportunity. That's how I eventually became a graphic designer. Right place, right time, but also it was something that I really wanted to do.

Mark Des Cotes: Yeah, a little bit of luck. I love hearing these stories of how people, especially designers, get into the field. There's so many fascinating stories, just like the one you just shared, how, as you said, it's just luck or being at the right place at the right time. It's like a happy accident that happened, that led to where you are now. So that's incredible. How long were you doing that with that company?

Ian Paget: That company, I was in that position for about five years. From starting, like I said, that team, it was 10% graphic design. By the end of that time, we had our own separate little building, there was four of us in the end, all working on all of the marketing material for the company, we had a room that was a photography studio in there, we had all our equipment in there. So that was five years of intensive learning.

I went from knowing nothing about graphic design to learning how to create brochures, marketing material. I did a lot of really good illustration and I absolutely loved all of the illustration work. But I got to a point, at about the five year mark where I was redesigning my own work again. I felt I reached a ceiling in terms of that position.

Moving to a web design agency

I started to look for other potential opportunities and that's when I ended up relocating and I found a position within a web design agency where I could work on design work lots of different companies. That for me was such an exciting thing. That was moving into web design work. That first job was mostly print-based stuff. It was a big transition going from one to the other, but that's how that kind of all happened.

Mark Des Cotes: Before moving into the web design, did you have any web experience?

Ian Paget: Nothing at all.

Mark Des Cotes: How did that transition go then? Because I know there's a lot of designers out there, especially people listening right now who may be print designers and are wondering about web. How did you go about transitioning from your print design background? I know a lot of the fundamentals and stuff of design apply, but it's a completely different medium. So how did you go about making that transition?

Ian Paget: I was looking for a new job and I came across this company that was looking for a graphic designer, even though I had no web design skills. So I met with the owner of the company and the director of the company. I met with them and I went through my portfolio. I think they could see potential. I could share what I had done, how I progressed, where I started, and where I am now. They just felt that I would be a good fit. They already had somebody within the company that was a graphic designer already. I was in this position where I could learn from them.

Honestly, that first day, that was hard because I had been used to working on brochures. What I would need to do is design a website home page. I know we've got all these tools out there now, like Figma and Adobe XD. There's loads of these different tools out there now. I was able just to create everything in Photoshop. I already had Photoshop skills. It was just a case of designing actual websites.

The first thing I did, to be honest, looking back now, I probably still got that file somewhere, it was horrible what I did, but it was better than what they were doing. That was the main thing that they saw, "Okay. You can do that. We can train you, teach you, and point you in the right direction." What I ended up doing was finding websites that were very good and recreating them, and figuring out why are they like this?

Again, I'd been used to learning on the job and it was just a continuation of that. Well, I started off not very good, within a few weeks I was doing proper pixel perfect website design stuff. I was in that job for 10 years. I ended up becoming a director of the company as well. But yeah, I learned a lot by just observing, reading blogs and stuff online, and making mistakes. Every time you design something and you find out that it's not working, you can figure out why, and then you will never do that again. I think that's one of the most important things to learn when you're designing anything is, is when you do it wrong, don't do that mistake again.

Mark Des Cotes: Yeah, you learn from it. Every great designer out there has experienced that. You make a mistake and that's how you learn. That's how you become a better designer.

Ian Paget: Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Des Cotes: So this is twice now, Ian, where your career, it was... I don't want to say you were lucky, but that in essence is what it was. Your first one, it was just that you had drawing skills, illustration skills. So they promoted you and you ended up being in design and that's where you got your love for design and that.

Then here, you went to a web design agency, with no web experience, and they hired you. Today, in this day and age, in 2020, somebody with no web design experience, it doesn't matter how good an artist they are, there's little chance they will get hired at a web agency. So you were very fortunate in that aspect.

Now, you mentioned how you were designing the websites in Photoshop. Actually, that's how I started off doing my websites is the same thing, doing them in Photoshop. At what point did you tradition to just designing what the website looks like to actually building the website?

Ian Paget: Okay. I never built the websites. The way that particular company worked is that I did the design work and I worked with one other guy and I managed him. What we would do is we would work directly with the account managers. The account managers would basically then pass over the artwork to a development team.

Doing that meant that I could focus my skillset primarily on graphic design, usability, the experience, and so on, rather than ever having to learn code. It's never really been something that's interested me. Well, when you are a graphic designer for the web, you have to have some basic understanding of how things will be built, but you don't really need to know code. There's a lot of tools out there now that are basically web versions of Photoshop. The tools have changed considerably since I started working in web design.

Mark Des Cotes: Yeah. Well, that's very interesting. That's something I didn't know. I knew you worked at the web design agency. I didn't realise that that was the role you had. See, even I'm learning stuff on it about you here today.

A growing interest in logo design

Mark Des Cotes: During that time, now we know this is the same job that you just recently left to go full time with Logo Geek. But Logo Geek emerged during that whole process, because looking back, you started Logo Geek... I looked up through your Twitter history, you started your Twitter account, which is how I originally discovered you. That was started back in 2012. What was the concept behind somebody who spends all your day doing websites and web design, to all of a sudden starting this journey for logo design?

Ian Paget: From quite a young age, so as soon as I started out as a graphic designer, I was always trying to develop my skills farther at home. I mentioned that in my very first job, I would go to work, I'd get stuck on something and then I go home and try and figure out how I could do that. That was something that stuck with me that anything that I did at home was a way to stretch my capabilities and to try working on things that I wouldn't necessarily get asked to work on, but would be a way to learn and develop.

Really early on, I used to do CD cover artwork and some really bad logos for MySpace bands. I used to do some of that for free. I've done film posters. In terms of side projects and things at home, I started to work on some really significant projects. So being really into film and animation and all that stuff, I looked around for clubs I could potentially go to.

First of all, I went to this one-day workshop for making films. At the end of the session, the guy actually said, "If anyone is ever interested in doing any voluntary work with the organisation, chat with me afterwards and I'll sort something out." So that's what I ended up doing. I volunteered to help out and I got involved with this thing called, Media Circus.

It was working with children of different age groups. There was a younger group, and then there was a slightly older group. Basically, what we would do, or what they would do is make films, games, all that stuff. The council funded it, they had this room full of brand new iMacs, and it was run by two animators, Evil Twin Artworks. I became really good friends with these animators. We all had lots in common. We all liked Star Wars, we all liked games and movies and stuff. So we used to get on really well.

I was interested in what they were doing. They were animators, then they started making iPhone apps and iPhone games. This was when the iPhone came out. So it was all new and exciting. I would show them some of the stuff that I was working on at home. This would be illustration for books, like characters and stuff like that. I'd show them some of the stuff that I was doing.

I noticed that they started to get into creating these apps and games and I wanted to help. I wanted in on this. I wanted to be involved. So I just said, "Is there any way that I can maybe help with something?" There was a project that they were working on and they pulled me in to help with... I can't remember where I started originally, whether it was some or the menus or if it was backgrounds, but I did a few basic things early on.

One of them was this nice parallax background for this Squid Kid game. That was really fun. I did a few menus and a few logos and stuff for them for the games. After working on one of the projects, they actually said to me, "Ian, we really enjoyed working with you on this project. If you've ever got an idea for an app or a game, come and speak to us." So what would you do?

I came up with this idea for a game,GooHoo, and I pitched it to them. I create this whole proposal thing and they agreed to build it. I did all the illustrations for it, I did all the animation sprites. I did loads, loads, and loads of work for this project. The early prototypes actually got saw by Chillingo and they was interested in it. That meant that we needed to redesign it all.

But that was a project that we all worked on for free, none of us got paid. We was working on and off for about four years. I would be going to work, I'd be coming home, I'd be working on this project in some capacity. After working on a big project like that it's exhausting, especially when you got a demanding job.

So, like I said, in my graphic design job, I eventually became a director. I had a team and all this stuff. It was just feeling like a stretch.

At the end of that project, even though I loved that and I still look back at the work I did there, and I still think it's some of the best design work that I've ever done. I just didn't want any more side projects. But what happened and how I got into to logo design is, I was speaking to my partner about it at the time. She said to me, "Ian, you're really good at logo design. Why don't you maybe consider that?"

I actually thought, "Yeah, a logo project would be good. It's quite a small project," rather than doing a four year long massive game, this is the type of thing that you could take on, work on for a couple of weeks and then it's done. If you want to do another one, then you can just have a break or you can do one immediately afterwards, and it seemed right. It was something that I was interested in.

We did the occasional logo in that web design job, but it wasn't enough to really get stuck in. So it was something that I started to offer to friends and family. It wasn't ever intended to be what it's become now. This was just as a fun hobby. Some of these early things I did for free, or I did them for like £25 or something like that. Some of the really early ones, I didn't make a lot of money from them, but it all blossomed from them really.

Becoming a full-time logo designer

Mark Des Cotes: At what point did it go from, let's call it a hobby or just doing a logo here or there, to something that you became more passionate about? Because obviously now, you're known as Logo Geek. But at that point, what was it that caused you to go from, "Oh, I'll do a logo every once in a while," to you are the logo person?

Ian Paget: This hasn't been something that's happened overnight, it's been a very gradual thing.

Mark Des Cotes: Obviously.

Ian Paget: That was the beginning of quite a journey. What I did, at that time, because I worked for a web design agency within that team, there was some SEO guys and I needed to write the occasional blog of that company. I learned a little bit about SEO and about websites and stuff like that.

I wanted to build a website and I wanted logo in there. Going through lots of different domains, I eventually came across logogeek.co.uk, which was available. I built a very basic, sloppy website. I just throw it together. Only intended for me. I'd put the occasional project on there as I did it. I'd start to write about design in some way. Like I said, that was just for me.

What I would be doing is, I'd do the occasional project for a friend or family and I'd put it on there. What started to happen, because I was writing about logo design and sharing it on social media, I had an old school friend get in touch and I did that for like 100 pounds. Then I had an old work colleague get in touch, and I did that for a small amount of money as well.

Then one day, I can't remember exactly when, but I actually had an inquiry through my website, like a real inquiry from a real person I didn't know. That was a big moment because it made me realise, "Oh, I can actually make some money from this. I can actually make some pocket money. I could take this project on, make a little bit money from it and maybe it can become something."

What I started to do, within my full time job, I always used to say to them, "We have to do more social media advertising and stuff like that." I used to pester them all the time because I could see that social media was working for me and it was something that I was interested in. I've not always just been interested in graphic design, I've always been interested in marketing as well.

They actually hired somebody who was going to work in their SEO team, but they hired them to do social media advertising. They put them under me so that I could manage them because they knew that it was something that I was interested in, something that I was pushing.

There was some interesting stuff that she was doing is like growth hack techniques for growth on social media.

At that time, Twitter was new. I didn't really get it. I never pasted on there. Never had an account at that time. She was doing these like follow, unfollow, posting, growth hacky stuff that sadly doesn't work here today. But I thought, "I'm going to try some of that with what I'm doing with my Logo Geek stuff."

At that time I had a Facebook page and I was posting design stuff on Facebook, but it wasn't really having any traction. It just felt like I was blowing stuff into the wind. Anyone that did like it was just other graphic designers.

I thought, "I would try this on Twitter." That was actually one of the things that really sparked a lot of growth because what happened is, I started doing what I was doing on Facebook on Twitter, but rather than having two followers a month, I was getting, early on, 50 followers a day. It was a huge growth using some of these growth hack systems that that person introduced me to.

What that did is, when I got to about the 8,000 mark, I started to get invited to be on designed juries. I got invited to be involved in something called, Transform Awards. I also got involved in Logo Lounge. Even though I hadn't done many Logos myself, that early involvement with Transform Awards, in particular, they brought me on as a judge and they put me on as a partner.

But what they did, on the bottom of every single page of their entire website, they had my logo with a link to it. What that caused, because it was linking back to my website, if you know anything about SEO and online marketing, backlinks make a big difference to your website. But what this caused was for a split moment, for maybe an hour or maybe a day, I can't remember exactly how long it was, but I saw a spike in website traffic. What came with a spike in website traffic was a spike in inquiries.

I went from having the occasional thing to suddenly all these inquiries in one day and that was mind blowing. I took on a few more projects then. But what it shown to me was, "Oh my God, I have the potential and knowledge to actually rank my website on Google for keywords, such as logo design." I could see how I could get that. I knew from the stuff that I was learning in my full time job, how I could do that. I knew people that I could ask questions.

It was just a domino effect. My Twitter was growing and with Twitter, what I was doing was posting content I was finding. I started to feel a sense of commitment from my growing audience. I would continue to search for the best resources. I would read them, I would post them. That got me into buying logo design books, because I wanted to learn more about this. I was interested in it anyway, but this sharing of information became a passion. I wanted to know as much as I could.

Every logo design book that I could find, I would buy it. I would read it. I would share that information in some way and you can see it just domino effected from there.

What eventually happened over a period of time was my website was started to rank well on Google, I started to get known as Logo Geek through Twitter, and I started to get involved in more and more things. So I started to get invited to be on other juries and started to get invited to write for websites, including Creative Bloq. I started to get invited on other podcasts. I started to get all these opportunities.

How I transitioned from one thing to the other, like I said, it was a gradual thing. I was doing this full time job that was quite demanding. I'd come home late and I'd have a list of emails, a list of messages on social. It was a bit much. It was hard. I was doing both and my long-term goal was always just to work for other companies. So to maybe go from that web design job that I found to actually going to work for a proper design agency, maybe in London working my way up. So that was always my plan.

What I started to see happen was that I felt like I needed to choose one of these two things, either my full time job or this Logo Geek thing that was growing. I felt really torn between the two and I actually did decide, "Okay, I'm going to give up Logo Geek and focus on my full time job," but I couldn't let it go. I felt like this is something I put a lot of time and effort into and I need to choose something.

I went for a long time and a number of years just feeling worn out and stretched between these two things. It took quite drastic things to happen in my life to actually make me make a choice.

What happened is my mum, she had vascular dementia and her memory started to go. She ended up in a home and you go and see her. There you'd spend time with people that are at the end of their lives and their memories are going. What eventually happened to us, my mum passed away, which was somewhat of a relief at that time because she was not particularly well.

There was a number of other things like I remember Gary Vee, I was big fan of his stuff. He would say, "You're gonna die". You got one shot at this. There was also a song in the charts that words basically count down your life.

I'm thinking, "Damn, I don't want to get to 78 years old and regret not doing something with this." Even though I was absolutely terrified to go and work myself, what I decided not long after then was I'm going to go and hand in my notice and go full time.

I was quite lucky really because they offered me part time. I ended up agreeing with them that I'd work for that company for three days a week. Then the rest of the time I could work on my own thing. I'm glad that they offered me that because I think I would have failed if I just went full time at that point. I don't think I was mentally ready for it, but it was a gradual enough transition.

I did that. That was about three or four years ago. Then I went about three years being part time. I just got to this point where I started to make more money in the two days a week with my own stuff. I started to do a lot of affiliate marketing. There were days when I was making more money at home whilst I was at work, not every day, but I had the occasional time where I'd be making more money at home, whilst I was at my day job. It just got to a point where I felt like, I'm ready to take the leap. I actually made that choice in January 2020. But as of March 2020, I am full time Logo Geek.

Mark Des Cotes: Good. We're glad you made that decision in, Ian.

Why the name Logo Geek?

Mark Des Cotes: Now, I would be remiss. I'm sure your audience would not appreciate if I did not ask the question on Logo Geek. You mentioned earlier that you did some searching for domain names, and all of that, at the time you were trying to come up with something.

Now, the term geek, now in 2020, is a badge of honour. But if you go back, not too long ago, geek was something that nobody really wanted to be known as a geek. Geeks were the people, they sat at the awkward table, they were the ones that were bullied, and all of that. When you were looking for domain names and stuff like that, what made you think that Logo Geek was the perfect name?

Ian Paget: Well, I didn't think it was the perfect name. That's the truth of it. When I was looking for potential names, I wanted logo or a logo design in the domain. This was when there was only the .com model, the .co.uk. I wrote down hundreds of potential names and nothing, absolutely nothing was available. But it just happened that logogeek.co.uk was available.

I did question if that was the right name. It did, somehow, feel right, bearing in mind that how I thought I could maybe get work was through Comic-Con. I am a geek. I am that person that sat on the awkward table. I am that person that got bullied. I am a stereotypical geek. If there was a real life Sheldon Cooper, it would probably be me and Logo Geek is the equivalent of fun with flags.

I am a geek. I do go to Comic-Con. If, say, I was to maybe look for clients at Comic-Con, Logo Geek would work, but being totally transparent, I've questioned that for a long, long time if it would be the right thing.

Over time, adding on things like the podcast, adding on things like the community, adding on other things, it started to become more and more relevant. I've been really surprised, because one of the real doubts I've had with this is that, I wouldn't be able to scale my business beyond a certain point, because I've always had concerns that Logo Geek sounds like a cheap budget, a 50-pound service.

I'm currently working on my second project now, with the University of Cambridge. They came to me. I didn't do any fancy marketing. They just sent me an email. We had a conversation on the phone. I got the project. I've just got a second project with them now that I'm set up as a supplier. I never thought that would be possible.

So yes, it's stuck. I've put a lot of time, money, and effort into owning everything around Logo Geek. I have all of the social profiles. I have the.com, I have the .co.uk. I've gradually built all of that stuff onto it because for me, I saw it as an investment and now it's become my life, how I'm making my income, and how I'm able to support my family, and all of that stuff. So yeah, that's how the name came about. I'm going to stick with it now.

Mark Des Cotes: Well, I know that I'm not the only one that thinks that... I couldn't imagine you or everything you've done under any other name, but Logo Geek. It is just so appropriate.

Ian Paget: A lot of people have said, it seems perfect for me. Yeah, it seems funny. That's just through association and becoming Logo Geek, rather than starting out as like a geek.

Mark Des Cotes: Oh come on. You just admitted, Ian. You were ahead of your time.

Ian Paget: Maybe, who knows.

Becoming an influencer in the design industry

Mark Des Cotes: I want to obviously get to the podcast, that's what we're doing, right now. We're on a podcast, and it's your 100th episode that we're celebrating. I want to ask you... First of all, before I do that, I wanted to share a couple of things. I looked up. You have a lot of reviews for your podcasts from all around the world. I just want to share a couple of them here with your audiences.

Here's one. It says, "Ian is a great podcast host. He does solid research on his guests and asks the right questions to get the most out of them, which is admirable, considering the diversity and prowess of the guests."

Another one here says, "This is a real life design podcast, from a real life designer. What I love about Ian and Logo Geek is that, he makes design and the pursuit of a career in design seem very human. What I mean is, Ian is in the same boat as many of us, especially myself, which in trying to find a way to make this career, while navigating the necessary struggles of just starting out. He has a way of bringing the human nature out of his guests, Bravo Ian."

Finally, "Although still new, Logo Geek is already establishing itself as a great form to dive deep into the lives and stories of some of the best logo designers out there. Each episode is filled with inspirational stories and insights to help logo designers take their game to a higher level. Keep up the great work Ian." That one signed by Mark Des Cotes of Resourceful Designer.

When did you, Ian, discover, realise, or acknowledge that you are, in fact, an influencer in the graphic design space? You're an interviewer of some of the top names in our field. These are names of the designers that don't even follow people, know of, like Chris Do, Aaron Draplin, Jacob Cass, Blair Enns, and so many others that you've interviewed, some great innovators and designers, you've interviewed them.

You've been guests on many shows. You mentioned earlier how you're an author, you write articles, and all of that. There's been articles written about you. You've been a judge on numerous different panels, for logo and for design. So at what point did you realise that you are actually an influencer in the design space?

Ian Paget: Well, firstly, I want to say, thank you for writing that review and thank you to every single person that's ever wrote a review. I'm very honoured for all of those. It makes all of the hard work worth it, knowing that you're helping someone out there with their career.

As for being an influencer, I find that really weird word. I am aware that I have some influence in the industry and that people do listen. But as for thinking more beyond that, I find it weird. I find it very strange to be at the position that I set out to be at, like the reality of becoming that person.

One of my goals, early on, prior to start a Logo Geek was maybe becoming someone like David Airey or Jacob Cass, and I feel I have achieved that. But the reality is, I am still plodding away. I'm still thinking about where I could possibly take this. I do feel that... I don't know how to say this, but I am the same as the people that are listening to me. I don't think I could ever see myself as above or better than them.

I just happen to be in this unique position and to have built a platform where I can connect people like me with the likes of Emily Oberman, Aaron Draplin, or anyone like that. It's a platform where I can bring all of these stories around logo design together in one place.

In terms of realising that I am an influencer, I, of course, acknowledge that. Beyond acknowledging it, it's that Spider-Man saying, "With great power comes great responsibility". It's more what do you with that? I'm just carrying on. I try to connect the right people so that listeners can learn from the right people. I take responsibility that I can set a good example.

In the Facebook group, I try to stand for what's right, and make sure that everyone is safe, and protect them. So yeah, I'm rambling a little bit, but... it's hard to know what to say to that question.

Mark Des Cotes: That's fine. You know what, that's the perfect answer. The best influencers out there are the people who never set out to be influencers, that it just grew upon them and they ended up there, inadvertently, just from what they've shared, what they've done. That's exactly what you've done with all of Logo Geek.

You look at everything. You've got a Twitter account that has almost 100,000 followers on it. You've got a Facebook group that is approaching 10,000 members. It's just everything that you do. Whether you like to admit it or not, you are an influencer. The fact that you never set out to do this, you're just going about doing what you love doing, is what makes you and what makes people want to follow you and want to listen to you, and take your advice.

So congratulations on that, and all, like the podcast, the website, the business, the Twitter, the Facebook, all the social media, the community, and all of that. It's all something you've built up organically, and you've done a really good job at it. It makes you a good and an important name in the design space. So congratulations for that, Ian.

Ian Paget: Thank you, Mark. That's really nice to hear. The reality of it and why I try to be so transparent and open about my story, personally, is that, I genuinely fell that anyone that has an ounce of talent has the capability of doing anything they want.

You can look at absolutely anyone within the design industry... What I've learned through doing this podcast is that, actually, Sagmeister, Draplin, Michael Bierut, Emily Oberman, all of these big names, they all started in very similar situations. When you look underneath the work, it's actually quite normal. It's quite relatable. I look at some of the stuff that I'm doing, and I don't see it as that different as the likes of Sagi Haviv and Tom Geismar and people like that.

How I see that is that, you listening, even if you're just starting out, if you work hard, and you set yourself to become that thing, it's possible. I feel like I've demonstrated that, myself. I sit down now, I'm doing a logo for a London-based university. It's phenomenal that I'm able to work on these projects that I didn't think I would ever get and I'm charging way more than I ever thought I would.

What I hope to do with the podcast is just share my story and other people's stories, make it real, make it relatable, and help you, whoever is listening, achieve whatever you want. Because I genuinely think that if you just work towards it, and you keep hacking at it every day, and don't give up, then you can do whatever the hell you want.

Mark Des Cotes: So true. I know we're running a little bit longer than your typical episode. This is your 100th episode in.

Ian Paget: It's fine.

Starting the Logo Geek Podcast

Mark Des Cotes: We'll go over. I'm sure your audience won't complain. So getting to the podcast. At what point... you and I have been talking for years and I know that you had a little bit of a problem. You were nervous. You were socially anxious person.

Ian Paget: I was a geek.

Mark Des Cotes: You're a geek, yeah. You're an introvert. You're a geek and all that. So what made somebody with your background, and the way you felt and your insecurities, and all that? What make somebody like you decide that you want to start a podcast and be out there in front of everybody?

Ian Paget: Going into the past, and all stuff again, I have suffered with anxiety issues most of my life. I was always told it runs in the family. My mum was a little bit like this. I didn't think too much of it, really growing up. But I do remember, from a young age, when I was an actor in a pantomime, as a 10-year-old, I developed the stage fright.

What I'd start doing is swallowing. I would feel sick and want to be physically sick. That developed into a phobia. So going into school, you'd have to do your public speaking. I would be shaking all over the place, I couldn't speak, I felt sick, I would be panicking for days, I couldn't sleep. Again, I thought it was normal. I didn't really think too much of it. I just avoided those situations.

Then going into work, so that first job I had, I developed a stutter as well. Then I also started to have this issue where within that company, they would sometimes do these toasts to people. They would celebrate occasions, and so on. I would have this issue, where I'm holding a glass of champagne and my hand would start shaking. If I was to drink that glass, I would spill it everywhere. I had stuttering issues. I just had a list of issues.

I started to think, "Maybe this is all connected." What I decided is, I need to do something about this. That was actually after having a family meal, where we had watery soup. I literally had a panic attack about eating soup, and I shook the soup all over the place, and they thought I had Alzheimer's, but it was just anxiety.

I contacted my doctor. I went to see a therapist. It was incredibly scary. It was very daunting being open about all these different things, and they aim to understand them. I started to see a therapist. In the UK, we have something called Talking Therapies. After my first session with this guy, he explained to me about cognitive behavioural therapy or CBT, how the brain works, and what's causing the issues.

I thought I was going to be laid down on a bed and asked to talk about my mother, and all sorts of stuff. But no, it was nothing like that. It was just understanding how phobia works and the shaking issue. He gave me a very simple tip, because he said, "If you focus on any part of your body for a long period of time, it will start to feel strange," and that's true.

What I was doing with the shaking, all my whole attention would be focused on that. What he suggested is, "Look at people around you, in the room, and focus on like the necklace," to distract myself, and I was amazed. Even now, I've had a little bit of a shake still, it basically solved that issue in one session within a half an hour conversation. That showed me, right away, I was like, "Oh, okay. I can actually fix this issue."

I had a few other sessions, in-person with them, and then I had a few other sessions on the phone. But he did tell me that my stuttering issue and my issue with public speaking is too complex to cure within a few sessions. He said, "It's the type of thing that could take years." But he told me if I use the principles and everything that he told me, then I could solve it.

But one of the challenging realities of that, and one of the difficult things with CBT is that, you actually need to face your fear, you actually need to work through that phobia. I still have it now, to be honest if I needed to do a public speech, I still get a little bit nervous. But podcasting seemed like a good way of emulating this feeling.

So the moment I hit the record button, and I saw the flashing light, it would bring up all the feelings of dread. I'd feel sick. I basically put myself in exactly the same situation I would feel in front of a large room of people. It would emulate the same feelings.

These podcasts aren't available, and I wish I still had them somewhere. But what I did was a short series of about six episodes, I think it was. I basically wrote out a script. I wrote a blog, basically. I hit record and then I read it out, and I started my way through it. I so was stuttering. I basically made myself say the word. I wasn't allowed to avoid it. That was something that I had to do in the real world as well.

So that helped solve the stuttering issue. Just doing that, it did help. It never really cured it, but it helped a little bit. A year went-by, then like I said, my mum passed away. That was a point after my mum passed away I decided I'm going to start saying, yes to things, rather than no to things.

So that's about the time that I went part-time, around the same time that I started my podcast community. All that stuff started around then. But I got invited to be a co-host on a podcast called SideGig with Preston. He runs a company called Millo, and a guy called Ryan Robinson, who's now become quite famous for his blogs.

We did these 10 episodes. I found out that he had a sponsor. It was going to make a little bit of money, and we recorded it. I was so nervous. There was points where they actually stopped, and said, "Ian, are you okay?" And I'm like, "No, I'm having a... my heart is racing. I need to just take a breath." But they understood and they supported me, and they allowed me to work through it. I did 10 episodes with them.

It was the sponsorship that got me interested, because I thought, "That's a nice little incentive. If I can get a company to sponsor 10 episodes of my own podcast, that would be good." I didn't know if I could do it, but I thought that would mean I'd be committed to doing this show.

I was able to get a sponsor. I booked in episodes. My first guest, which actually became episode four, was Aaron Draplin. I'd never interviewed anyone in my life. The first interview was Aaron Draplin, and being honest, it was an absolutely car crash of an interview. The final thing, which you can all listen to, is primarily a completely fabricated conversation.

What I ended up having to do was, because my side of the audio didn't get recorded properly. Aaron kindly recorded it on his end. So I cut out the good bits of what Aaron said, and I patched it together, by recording some things. But yeah, that's what you can do with the audio.

Mark Des Cotes: Ian, that's quite the story. I know that a lot of people listening out there can relate to the anxieties, the nervousness, and all of that stuff. I want to thank you, first of all, for sharing that with your audience, because a lot of people could possibly get inspiration just from hearing that story.

Ian Paget: I hope so, because anxiety is something that can become very dominating over your life and you can really let it overtake everything that you do. The reality is that, it's not something that's inherited, which I thought. It's something that you can work through, and you can solve.

Hear me now, I'm speaking comfortably and confidently on this podcast. And my stutters cured. I feel quite confident now speaking and that's come through a lot of work. It doesn't happen overnight. Each gradual change is so minute you don't feel that you're changing, and improving. It's only when you look back over a long period of time, that you can see actually where I am now is a hell of a lot better than where I was two, three years ago.

So if that's you, if you have anxiety issues, please go and speak to somebody. It will change your life.

Mark Des Cotes: For sure.

Ian Paget: If you want to speak to anyone about it, just send me a message. I'm more than happy to help and give advice where I can.

Mark Des Cotes: Yeah, thank you for putting that out there, Ian. If anybody wants to see the transformation, I remember, I was subscribed to Side Gig, and I remember listening to you there. Anybody who wants to hear the difference between now and then, go back and listen to that first season of Side Gig. Ian, have you gone back and listened to that recently?

Ian Paget: I can't listen to it. It's embarrassing. I don't even want to know... I don't want people to know that it's there. Don't listen to it. I remember doing those sessions and because I was so nervous, what I would start to do is, I'd be listening to the conversation and they both had these amazing American accents.

I'd forget that I need to speak, and then I'm like, I've just got this feeling... "I have to speak. I have to say something. I have to say something.” I'd hear them say something, and then I'd be like, in my head, "I'm going to say this." Five minutes would pass, and then I'll say something that's completely unrelated to what was just said, it doesn't quite connect with the rest of the conversation. That's where I was.

That's taken a lot of practice to listen and respond to what they just said, but go back to what I wanted to ask. I've come a long way since then. Even like early episodes of the Logo Geek Podcast, I don't recognise my voice. I sound different. It's weird.

Mark Des Cotes: Well, it's just like designing, practice makes perfect, or no such thing as perfect? But practice makes a lot better.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, one thing that I've always done with the podcast, with graphic design, is when I see I'm doing something wrong I will try to improve it, and that could be one tiny thing. But if you do that one tiny thing on every episode, it makes a big difference. So if it was to go back to early seasons of this, I was using my microphone wrong. I didn't know how to clean up the audio. There was a lot of stuff that I didn't know how to do.

But with each episode, I tried to improve it. So you notice. It took about 20 episodes to get the hang of it. But episode one to episode 20, you will start to see the gradual improvement. Now I feel like I've mastered the art of podcasting.

Mark Des Cotes: Well, I don't know if we'll ever do. I personally have 232 episodes out of my podcasts, and I still feel like I'm learning every single week, and that I still have a lot to grow. I hope never to get to that point, where I'm too comfortable. Because then, you don't grow. You don't continue, just like design. I've been a designer for over 30 years. I still think I have so much to learn in the design space.

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely. That's one of the most important things, as a graphic designer, is to see growth. The moment that you stop seeing growth, there's something not quite right there. You have to have this feeling, deep in your gut, that you're never good enough. That will push you to keep learning, keep developing, and keep improving. If you do that with every aspect of your life, you will be the best version that you can be. Always try to improve who you was yesterday. Then try to compare yourself with whoever is out there.

Mark Des Cotes: So true. Ian, earlier, I read a couple of the reviews from your podcast, some people saying how much they enjoy it and that it helped them. Has there been any email, voicemail, or any communication from a listener that stands out to you, something that you remember that somebody said how your podcast has helped them?

Ian Paget: There was an episode that we did around mental health, and it was with Abi Lemon. We spoke about mental health. I heard from someone that I'd actually known for a while, opened up to me that they've also had CBT. That was nice to hear, because therapy, anxiety, mental health is the type of thing that you suffer through on your own, a lot of the time.

Speaking about it on the podcast, as openly and as transparently as we did, actually helped a lot of people out there. It was nice to know that someone that I'd known for quite some time actually came up to me and opened up about it. If there was a friend of mine who was able to open up, can you imagine the impact that that potentially had on people that I didn't know?

There have been a couple of other messages like that. But that's one of the most important things that I've noticed, that the real hardest struggles speaking about on the podcast is actually really, really important. But I've had a lot of messages, a lot of emails. I've saved a lot of them in a folder. At some point, I'll probably have to get them pinned up.

But yeah, it's been an absolutely incredible journey, to get to this point, where something that I'm creating for fun is genuinely helping people with personal issues, helping them get a new job, helping them get clients, helping them become better designers. It's nice to be in that position to genuinely help people through a medium like this.

What's the future of Logo Geek?

Mark Des Cotes: For sure. Where do you see your podcast, Logo Geek, yourself, five years, 10 years from now?

Ian Paget: Something I'm planning to release soon is a magazine called Logo Talk, and that would be primarily based on the podcast. I'm also planning to, at some point... I don't know when it will be, but do a series of books. I like to do a series of courses to help other people do what I've done, but basically, to continue building our Logo Geek, for both clients and designers.

I feel like I'm in a really good place, right now. I'm in this fortunate position, where I can work from home. I can see my little one grow up. My partner doesn't need to work. She can raise our child. We don't need to get childcare or anything like that.

I want to be where I am, now. I feel like I have achieved a lot of what I wanted to. In five years' time, I'd like to continue to be working with bigger and better, and more impactful projects. But also, I plan to continue to do the podcast. Like I said, I just want to grow it and to create a platform that helps more designers, and also, it becomes a self-sustaining thing. So something that makes an income, so that I can spend more time on it, to help more people.

But yeah, I've always had this somewhere out there goal. I'm working hard towards it. I'm hoping that, in terms of my anxiety issues, I'd like to do more in-person presentations, in-person workshops, or that type of thing, because that's still something that absolutely petrifies me. I want to work through that phobia. So like I said, when I'm 80, I could look back and think, "I did it," rather than, "What if?" So yeah, I feel like I'm on the right pathway and I'm just going to keep building on what I've already built.

Mark Des Cotes: It's beautiful. Finally, last question, Ian. If you were able to go back and talk to your younger self, what message would you give yourself?

Ian Paget: Oh my God. I would probably go back... There's a couple of times that come to mind. When I was quite young, 11/12, the phobia issues were public speaking, and so on. I wish I had some of the advice that I got from therapists early on. I wish I got that help earlier on, because I think I could've fast-tracked what I've been working through.

But in terms of going full time, I went full time this year, and that's something that's been pending for a long time. I feel like I could have made that leap a long time ago, but I was always, I guess, too scared to make that leap. I think that I could have done that earlier on and I should have had more confidence in myself. But I don't know. There's something about this year. It just felt like the right time to do it for so many reasons. But I think I have the capability of doing that, a bit earlier. But yeah, that's probably what I would say.

Mark Des Cotes: Yeah, actually, you'll hear that from so many, myself included, when I went on my own in 2005, same thing. I'd go back and I'd tell myself to do it sooner. You'll hear that from so many people that are on their own. It's, they wish they had done it sooner. So such a great thing.

Well, Ian, this was what I think is a great interview. Your audience is really going to enjoy everything that you shared, a lot of stuff that I learnt, and I'm sure that they didn't know. I want to thank you for being a guest on the Local Geek Podcast.

Ian Paget: Thank you, Mark. This was really great. You know what, I've actually tried hitting the record button and sharing some of my story in the solo episodes. But when you just do his on your own, it's boring. You've gone into a lot of stuff that I would never even have considered going into, and it's made a really interesting conversation. Thank you, Mark, for helping to celebrate a landmark episode... 100 episodes. So thank you.

I never imagined that I would get to this point. I feel it's quite an achievement and worth celebrating. So thank you, Mark. Thank you everybody that's listened to this. It's incredible to think that I've got to 100. Like I said, I've got no plans of stopping. I'll probably take a little bit of a break after the 100th episode, being transparent, but I'm planning to bring it back with new music, I might redesign some stuff, and basically relaunch it as what I see as a proper podcast.

Mark Des Cotes: Well, as part of your audience, we look forward to it, Ian.