Attracting Design Clients Through Dribbble

Ian Paget: I'm really curious to learn a little bit about your background, because you're a relatively young designer. If I'm right, and correct if I'm wrong, you're 25?

Lisa Jacobs: Yes.

Ian Paget: So, you haven't been doing this that long, and you do seem to be doing really well based on what I've seen, so I think sharing some of your story will hopefully inspire some of the listeners. I understand that you did a bachelor's degree in communications and multimedia design where you first got introduced to branding. What did you do immediately after that?

Lisa Jacobs: I think I graduated about three years ago, and at the time I had a student job at a startup accelerator, which is by the way a really great way to build out a ton of network, like a huge network, so I did that for a while, but I started being active around that time on Instagram, and I realised that looking at other people what I really needed was some agency experience because I felt like because my bachelor's degree didn't really go as in depth into branding and graphic design as I thought it would I wanted to have some more experience in an agency, so that's when I applied for an agency job, and I worked that for about a year.

And then, after that, I moved to a different city and the idea was that I felt like I wanted to do more with freelancing, but the freelancing was very hard to combine with a job at the agency, so that's why I left. So then, I started working for a virtual reality company last year while combining it with freelance, and then since August of 2020 it was going so well that I took the leap and quit to do this full-time.

Ian Paget: That's really cool, so within quite a short period of time you've worked for a few different companies, you've mixed working for an agency and doing your own thing, and now you're doing your own thing. How's it going in terms of being full-time in the last few months?

Lisa Jacobs: It's been really good. I don't regret it at all. I remember the day that I was quitting I was just so nervous. I was so nervous in thinking is this the right decision, there's so many risks, and now I actually did it, and I'm like, "Why haven't I don't this before?" It's really great to be -

Ian Paget: I can relate with that, although you did a lot earlier than me. I was actually in a company for about 11 years until I took that leap, and it's terrifying.

Lisa Jacobs: Oh yeah.

Ian Paget: I don't know what your personal situation is, but I've got a little baby, I've got a mortgage to pay, my partner doesn't work because she looks after the little one, so there's so much pressure and stuff on me, but I think it's absolutely terrifying for anyone to take that leap, but everyone I know that's had the courage to do that doesn't regret it at all.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. It's funny that you mention it though because I was always thinking if I ever go to that level of responsibility of having a house, owning a mortgage, or maybe having a family, or something like that then I would be, like you said, I would be even more scared probably, so I was thinking as well if I don't try it now then I'll probably never do, because the best time is now to do it, or at least experiment with it, because I don't own a house, I just rent an apartment, and I don't have a family yet, so it's perfect time to try it out.

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely perfect timing. I always thought with anything like this, and I think it was in The 4-Hour Workweek there's this exercise that Tim Ferriss does all the time where he imagines absolute worst case scenario, and I know for me I'm quite lucky because I have family, absolutely worst case scenario say if I couldn't pay my mortgage, and to be fair if you're renting you still need to pay your rent, otherwise, you're going to get kicked out.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, that's true.

Ian Paget: But worst case scenario, if you can picture that in your mind what the absolute worst case scenario, say you couldn't get any client work. Most people you just go and get a job, don't you?

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I don't think it's as scary in reality when you start to look at it in that way.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly, because that's one thing that had to click. It took a really long time to click for me is that I always saw taking that leap as it's an all or nothing situation, and there's no way going back, when there really is. Like you said, if it fails then you can always go back, but I just didn't see it at the time. For me, it's an all or nothing situation, even though it's not, so yeah.

Ian Paget: Don't worry. I can totally relate with that. I just want to quickly ask you, so when you did your qualification you mentioned it didn't go into branding as much as you would've liked to of done, but you were able to get a job at an agency. Did you need to create any of your own projects in order to get that job, or was the work that you did in your studies enough to actually get you a job at an agency?

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. I actually don't think I ever used any work that I did at school as a portfolio. When I started that agency, or at that agency I mean, I just used a lot of my Instagram content that I made, and at the time when I was working at the startup accelerator it was my job right before it.

That job was pretty easy in the sense of that I didn't have a lot of workload, so I just started sketching and learning about brand design while I was at that company, and that is how I made a lot of content while I was working, which probably isn't the right way to use your time at a job, but I didn't have a lot of work to do there, so that's how I filled my time, and that is also how I filled up my portfolio.

Ian Paget: I think that's interesting to hear that all of the work that you shared during that interview was none of the work that you did in your studies. It was all stuff that you did in your own free time, and I think what's important to bear in mind is that when you go for an interview they want to see the type of work that you could potentially be doing, and that's probably the reason why you eventually got that job, is that you not only shown potential, but they could actually see the type of work that you would be doing, and that they could immediately take those skills and put it to use right away.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. What I love about doing your own case studies as well is that the people who are going to see it, whether it's on Instagram, or when you're applying for a job, or something, is that they know what type of person that they're hiring, so if you have a very specific style that you like, or a very specific type of client that you like working for then people resonate with that when they hire you, so it's just more likely that you have a good match with the people that you're going to work for, so I think just doing your own case studies is a really good idea regardless anytime.

Ian Paget: Yeah, absolutely. Now, I know when you first started out, you're now doing branding, logo design, I actually heard because I listened to a couple of your podcasts you said that you originally didn't actually like logo design. Why was that, and what's changed now?

Lisa Jacobs: Honestly, I have no recollection of what context I said this, but I remember though that I was just not attracted to it as much, and I probably had the idea of all of the people that are doing logo designs are the people that are offering it for $20 on Fiverr or something, and I just didn't see myself doing that, but eventually I kind of started enjoying it more when I got introduced to it, and when I was doing logo design on Instagram I was solely posting logos on Instagram, so I only got inquiries for just logos, and that's not what I wanted to do.

I wanted to make entire visual identities, or corporate identities, so I changed up my strategy a bit and showing more of bigger visual identities than just solely logo design. I really enjoy making or creating the context around the logo, probably even more than a logo itself to be honest, so just that it all clicks and fits, so maybe that answers the question. I don't know.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. It does. It does. And I think it's interesting you said that actually because so many people have said the same thing, but if you want to attract a certain type of work you need to show the type of work that you want, and at the beginning, like you said, you were just sharing logo design only, and that's what I do myself, because primarily I do want those logo design projects. It's what I personally really enjoy, but if you want to do more branding projects doing exactly what you did makes sense, start showing the larger identities, and then when people need that they can see that's what they do, and so on.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. That's usually how I do it as well.

Ian Paget: As you mentioned, you're now full-time freelance, and if I understand right it's all going really well for you. I think this is the type of thing that a lot of graphic designers would like to do. Are you able to share a little bit of some of the behind the scenes stuff that you did to go from working for someone else to running your own business, getting your own clients, all of the stuff that goes along with that?

Attracting Branding Clients through Dribbble

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, sure. I think I actually only started being much more active with my freelancing at the start of this year. I let people know that I was doing that around my circles, but I already knew in advance that I also wanted to focus more internationally, to work on a remote basis, instead of just for the people within my network, especially when COVID was breaking out. I was getting inquiries pretty much through Dribbble.

I know that I have more followers on Instagram, but I was getting, and still getting pretty much all of my inquiries from Dribbble, so at the time I didn't really have to go look out for projects, because they were all coming through that platform, but as the projects grew and I felt like financially it was the right time to make the leap is when of course a lot more of my time got freed out.

To be honest, I'm looking for new ways to do business development myself, because this is now actually the first time that I have time to actually approach other people instead of them coming to me, but I do find LinkedIn and Facebook groups to be super helpful as well, and I have a couple of friends that I met through Instagram that are very busy either with illustrations, or designers, or who work in-house for bigger agencies around the world that sometimes hire freelancers to help out, or to take on certain projects, so connecting with these people has definitely worked out as well.

Ian Paget: I'd like to go into network a little bit later in the conversation, but since you mentioned Dribbble, I don't really use it myself, and I think there's so many different ways that you can potentially get clients, but as long as you get enough to keep your business sustainable that's all that really matters, and I think because you're doing more than logo design, and you're doing larger identities, you probably realistically only need 10, 20 projects a year in order to make it sustainable, so all of these activities that you're already doing through Dribbble and through Instagram is probably enough, but as you know it's always worth looking into other directions, and sowing the seeds for other potential ways that you could attract potential clients.

But anyway, Dribbble, would you be able to share what you've done in order to actually get clients through that platform?

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, sure. It's funny that you ask, because I've been experimenting with something that helped me a lot as well, but like Instagram, Dribbble is a platform where you can get a lot of followers when you interact with other designers, so I was checking out their work pretty much every day and commenting, and liking, and just interacting with a lot of people, as well as trying to post regularly. That has helped a lot, and then because I also had followers on Instagram I tried to funnel them through my Instagram to Dribbble as well.

And then, in terms of getting clients there what I found was being very thoughtful with the use of my keywords. So, I use for a lot of my logo work that I post I use the keyword luxurious, or luxury, because I have a lot more affinity with luxurious brands, and that's the type of projects that I like to take on, so I use those keywords, and similar keywords in the projects that I post, which meant that my work was starting to pop up on top when you're starting to search for these keywords.

And those are keywords that a lot of clients are going to search for on Dribbble that are looking for that look and feel, so I was slowly trying to describe my keywords in terms of an ambience of a logo, or branding, or a description of a look and feel that they're looking for rather than a very specific description that often logo designers use, like a badge, or a logotype, or these type of things, because clients don't know these terms, so they're not going to look for these terms, and that is how I've been lately seeing an increase in Dribbble inquiries is just by adjusting keywords to what clients, at least in my head, are searching for instead of what designers are searching for.

Ian Paget: That's a really simple tip, but it's very actionable as well, so if anyone is posting on there, or if they start to be a little bit more thoughtful as to what keywords they're using then I think that makes a lot of sense. Do you have any idea if your following on there, because you mentioned that you being intentionally building up a following on there by commenting, by sharing on other platforms, does your following influence your position in the search results at all do you know?

Lisa Jacobs: I think so because with Dribbble they've been throwing things around a little bit, so they're renewing the platform quite a bit now, and I do feel like they're giving newer designers with lesser followers more of an option now with the New and Noteworthy option, but if you get more likes then you also get on the popular page, which is usually what people look for, so I do feel like it's easier, definitely, especially when you're searching for keywords, but it's not impossible, because I actually only started using Dribbble intensively last year, August, so it's been only a little over a year that I've been really active on this platform. It's not un-doable, which is what a lot of people think about Dribbble.

Ian Paget: And how do you know that your leads are coming from Dribbble? Are you tracking that in some way, or do you just ask your client where they originally came from?

Lisa Jacobs: I get a lot of direct messages on Dribbble, so people who are just clicking on the "Hire Me" button, and then send me a message on that platform, or people that send me an email and saying, "Oh, I saw your work on Dribbble. It's great. Let's have a chat," or something, and it's pretty much all emails start like that. It's never like, "I found you through Instagram," or something. It's rarely the case to be honest.

Building Reputation through Social Proof

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely. Now, I mentioned about networking, and it's something that I would like to speak to you about, because you are very active online. That's how I came across you. I think I've seen you on a couple of podcasts. I've seen you on a couple of the Instagram Lives. I've seen you on Design Cuts  live thing I think.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

Ian Paget: You've done quite a lot of different things, so you must be networking a lot, and I know you also had your own podcast as well. The Cat's Out of The Bag, which is something that you do with a photography friend of yours as well.

Lisa Jacobs: Yes.

Ian Paget: I know all of this stuff takes a lot of time. Obviously, there's a value to it, but why are you doing all of these different things? Is there a reason for it? Could you share that with the audience?

Lisa Jacobs: To be honest, I just like doing it, doing the Instagram Lives, and the podcast, and stuff. I don't think necessarily that I get clients out of it, because I know that most of these podcasts other designers are looking at, and to be honest I know that a lot of designers on Instagram especially are looking to fulfill some kind of educational role, which is really cool, but that's not something that I'm personally interested in right now because I'm super young, and I still have so much to learn myself.

I don't know. I just enjoy it, because with Connor Fowler, and Mark Hirons, and Michael Fugoso, these are people that I met online and have become actual friends of mine, and so I just really enjoy just emerging myself in that community because I think the design community especially on Instagram is just really cool, a really cool place to be.

Ian Paget: You know what? I actually think you're at a great advantage because people could do what you're doing for a very intentional reason, and that's building social proof. I'm not sure if that's something that you've come across-

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

Ian Paget: ... but you're at a great advantage, and I actually did a similar thing. I really enjoyed posting on Twitter, on Facebook. I enjoy doing this podcast as well, but I think all of these small activities that you do builds up authority around what you're doing, which is probably the reason why Tom invited you to be on the Design Cuts panel, and that's why I've invited you on this.

I think these things that people like yourself do mostly for fun is actually the type of thing that will eventually catapult you to great success long-term, and that is actually one of the reasons why I wanted to get you on, and to share all of this stuff, because all of the young designers out there, they're probably twiddling their fingers not being entirely sure what to do, and there's you doing this because you like doing it, and that's probably one of the main reasons why I started to get clients, why you got your first job originally. Do you know what I mean?

Lisa Jacobs: It's funny that you actually mention it because I remember when I was applying for my first agency job. The moment that I walked in the job interview this guy that was interviewing me was asking "What is your Instagram strategy because you have so many followers?" And I'm like, "Whoa, you've done your research." Then I realised, yeah, totally, I can turn this to my advantage. It's not the goal of me doing that, but it's definitely an added advantage to it all, so yeah, definitely.

The thing is I think that people recognise the intention maybe behind people reaching out, or people talking to each other, which makes the difference I guess, because it's just secondary advantages I guess. I don't know.

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You know this horrible term, influencer?

Lisa Jacobs: Oh, god.

Ian Paget: I really hate that word. I recently did my 100th episode, Becoming Logo Geek, and Mark who interviewed me on the episode he actually asked me a question about being an influencer, and I'm like ... But I think that's how people that are actually genuine influencers become influencers, because they work hard, they're good at what they do, and they just happen to like helping people and being genuine, and I can see that you're doing that.

I know you're only three years into your journey, or officially if you're classing being full-time independent you're only six months into your journey, and I really think because of these small things that you're doing every day over the next 10 years that's going to scale in such a significant way. You're 25 now, in the next 20 years you could be on the same level as the likes of Louise Fili, and Paula Scher. I think that's where the next generation of that type of person will come from is these social platforms, and the minute activities that they're doing on a daily basis.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. That would be really cool though. It's insane to even think about it, but that would be really cool actually. That's why especially on IG Lives, or when I see other people's interviews, or hear other people's podcasts is that they get a lot of the question of new designers to the community as in how do I start, and I'm scared to start, and I think it's just about just doing it. I think that even I have a lot of content on my Instagram where I look at right now, and it's like this is just very mediocre content, but it resonates with some people, and it builds up over time, and I think whenever you start, and you're just posting regularly then looking back and see how much you've approved it's just really nice to see I guess.

Ian Paget: And I wouldn't remove any of the early stuff because it shows your progression. It's something that you can look back through, but also people like Ian Barnard who's an absolutely amazing type designer, hand-lettering artist, if you go back through his older stuff you can see that he's progressed, and I think that's nice to see. It makes the goal of actually reaching that level look realistic. You don't become that person overnight. You just keep working away at it, and keep practicing, and eventually you get there, and I think that's the type of thing that's good for people to see, especially young designers just starting out.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I know pre-social media I can imagine that you see these incredible graphic designers, and you only see what they want you to see, so you see all these new books, and stuff like that, but I think now it's a lot easier to see that getting into the industry is actually a very achievable, realistic goal, and all it requires is time and effort.

Lisa Jacobs: Exactly. Yeah, totally. I was introduced to branding during my bachelor's degree but it was very minimal. Most of the stuff I did was completely self-taught to be honest. I think that bachelor's degree was just complimentary to what I'm doing now, but you can totally get into it very easily I think.

Ian Paget: I think a degree helps to open doors, and it teaches you what you need to learn, and when you are self-taught one of the challenging things is that you don't know what you don't know, so when I started out ... I am mostly self-taught, but it was helpful early on in my career actually having someone to point me in the right direction, and I think that's what university does. It gives you that solid foundation, and the connections, and stuff like that, but the real work you have to do it yourself. You can't just sit there and think, "Oh yeah. This is all going to happen now because I've got this piece of paper," but that's not how it works."

Ian Paget: It's a tough, tough industry out there, but I think if you work hard in the way that you do then you're going to have success at the end of it.

Lisa Jacobs: Thank you. Yeah. What I think is not discussed enough when it comes to bachelor degrees, or learning the skill anyway, is that it takes a lot of pushing through, and your ability to just push through a not quit is something that is very unique in people, especially because there's so much new stuff popping up for everyone to learn, and taking your curiosity.

And so, I think it's really cool if somebody actually finds something that they enjoy doing, and actually master it in a very cool way because it shows that even though it's a long road to learn they really have a goal in their head, like this is where I want to be at, this is what I want to be able to do, and I'm not going to stop doing it until I'm able to do that full-time for example, and I think that is really cool.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that's a common trait across people that are successful in the design industry, they just keep going and don't give up, and don't stop, and I think that's a characteristic that anyone that wants to enter this industry really needs otherwise they're just going to get chewed up.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. You're totally right.

Lisa Jacobs Logo Design Process

Ian Paget: I'd love to spend a little bit of time going into the process stuff. It's the type of thing that everyone loves. This is The Logo Geek Podcast after all. I know you do branding as well so we can also go into that. Would you mind sharing from start to finish, and you can go into as much detail as you want. It's other graphic designers listening.

Lisa Jacobs: Sure.

Ian Paget: So could you share with us your process for a typical branding project?

Lisa Jacobs: Sure. Usually, I get an inquiry, so let's just say I get an inquiry from somebody that's like I want a logo, or a visual identity. Usually, the question is always how much do you charge, so I don't have set prices. I usually send them a link to the branding packages that I have on my website that I custom made as a base of what I've done over the years that I think businesses, or starting businesses, often need when they're looking for a rebrand or a brand, and I'm like, "Is this something that is interesting to you? If so, let's just on a call."

So then, they plan a call, and we just discuss their business, what their goals are, what type of audience they're trying to attract, why they maybe want a rebranding, what's going wrong right now, what are the pain points, what are the wins, what is the deadline, when do you want to launch, these types of things. And also, we discuss pricing and if they feel comfortable then the first 50% gets paid and then we move forward to the strategic part.

Ian Paget: Can I just quickly interrupt?

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I think something that's important that people know, when you are doing sales for graphic design it's good to pretty much do what you did. So, the email comes in, if they're interested in your service you jump on a call, but I think the way that you mentioned that you're aiming to understand how you can help, and understanding the goals, or what they need to do, and then you're giving a price.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly.

Ian Paget: You're not just emailing them back saying it's such and such amount of money. You are running through understanding, and I think doing that right away puts you at an advantage against other people, because they can see that you understand, you can talk through your process, and I think that's really important. Sorry for interrupting, I'll let you carry on.

Lisa Jacobs: No, totally. To add to that, I know that people that are sending inquiries like this are often shopping around, which is totally normal, so I know that these people are probably sending this email to five to 10 other graphic designers, and I know that if I just send my pricing and that's it they'll just compare the big red numbers to the rest of the reply that they get, and that's not going to help me, that's not going to help them, and it's not going to help them see the value in what I have to offer compared to what other people might have to offer, so I think that is definitely the way to go.

Also, to know if I'm a good match because maybe there's tons of red flags that I've not seen yet. That's usually why I jump on the call first. I usually work with 50 upfront and then 50 at the completion before delivering the final files. Then we jump on a strategy call, which is a discussion call where we go a little bit more in depth with the first call that I had, and really go more to the core issues of what they're experiencing right now. Usually, the clients also have mood boards prepared and something that they have in mind as well.

So then, after the call I do my research. I make my own mood board, or Stylescape, and I present that to them so I know that we're both looking in the same direction, because that's what I'm trying to do as well the whole time. It's very important to me that, basically, before I even start sketching that the client and I both know what it's going to look like. That is ideally what I want to create in that process. So after discussing the mood board, and my research, I start sketching and I make the proposal, which I then make in a presentation, and present in a call.

I only present one concept. I never do multiple ones. Usually, it's just a hit right away, so there's usually very small iterations but usually it's a hit right away.

Ian Paget: I think that's one of the real advantages of doing a mood board, or a stylescape, is that you can clarify the direction. I've had this experience myself, but there's a lot of designers they experience this issue where they speak to the client, they take the project and ball, they put a load of ideas together, and then the client doesn't like it, and there can become this issue of just going back and forth, and then it can just all go sour and go wrong.

I think how you can get around that is the way that you've approached this where first you've had proper conversations with them to understand in detail what they're trying to achieve, so understanding their goals, and their strategy, as to what they plan to do. I think that mood board at the beginning that clarifies a lot of the things, because sometimes people say "I want something really modern," but actually what does that mean to them, and you can clarify that with a couple of images even before you jump into any actual graphic design work.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. I feel like especially with mood boards it really comes in handy, and I also ask them if they have any brands they aspire to be like, or to be seen next to, so I really have an idea what their super brand, or fan brand is, or whatever you want to call it, but to really have an idea of how they think. That is I think also the way for me to be able to present one concept is because I know what they're expecting, and I know what they want. If I have that very clear for myself at first then there's no need for me to present multiple concepts.

Ian Paget: I did notice, obviously, that you do present one, and I also noticed that you're quite upfront that you only allow two revision rounds. What's the reason why you've approached it in that way, because that seems quite strict to only allow two rounds? Is there some thinking behind that approach?

Lisa Jacobs: To be honest with you I don't usually just allow two revisions. I usually just go ahead until we have the desired results, but it's more to at least get a feeling for the client, like don't go overhead with tons of tiny revisions separately, but if you have a revision then just let me know all at once, and then we move forward from there. To be honest, it's not like I'm counting it every time, but it's more to get a grip or some control over the revisions.

Ian Paget: I do exactly the same, and being transparent, when I first started out offering design services to my clients at that time I came from an agency position, and in that company they had issues with clients, and I thought that's not going to happen to me. I can convince my clients to go down this route, so I allowed a limited at the beginning, this was a long time ago now, and I learned quite quickly there will be that occasional client that wants to see so many different variants.

So, I actually had this nightmare project where I put a design together, they absolutely loved it, but they wanted to see it slightly tweaked, so I did the tweak, and then they're like, "We don't like that. We want to see it more like this." And then, they started sending over screenshots of exactly what they want, and then you do that, and then you send it over, and they didn't like that, and it was just ridiculous, and because it was unlimited there's no escape. There's no way of getting out of that. I think what I needed to do at that time was just literally say to them, "This is completely unreasonable now. We're on version 25. I can't keep just making changes indefinitely."

I think with anything like that you have to learn from your mistakes, and update things accordingly, so doing like you've done, two rounds revisions. I do, I think it's four in my contract, but I do the same as you. There's tweaks, and it just means make that tiny tweak, and then it's done. I would just do that, even if it's above and beyond four rounds, but what that does, quantifying anything in your contract, in your proposals, it means that you have the grounds to say, "No more, if you want any further changes this is going to be additional costs," and so on, and the client can't say anything because it's in writing.

And I think, like you said, it sets the ground that you're not going to accept constant tweaks. If there is any feedback it needs to all come in one go, and not be a ridiculous amount of changes.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The agency that I worked at they did it in a similar way, so they also said two revisions and that's it, but they usually always had more obviously. But like you said, you are in your position to say, "Okay, that's it. We've already overdone ourselves," and that is also a thing with having a limit of revisions, and even when you go over that it's not bad or anything. It's just added service I try to see it.

They have two revisions, and I offer to help them more, but from those two revisions on it's always my position to be like, "No. It's fine like this. Let's find another solution." But what I've done between two revisions, and the point where I'm seeing that, is all added service in that sense.

Presenting 1 Logo Concept

Ian Paget: Yeah, absolutely. And the one concept approach. I know that it's been heavily debated in lots of different places. I've heard both sides of the argument, and both sides have very valid arguments, but still personally I like to present at least two options so that there's two to compare. What's the reason why you firmly stood ground on the one concept approach?

Lisa Jacobs: It's a good question, because like you said I think that both parties have very valid reasons as to why they're doing that. For me, I did multiple versions beforehand as well, before I worked at the agency, and then there they worked with the concept of only presenting one, which was very scary to me at first.

I'm like, "How on Earth are they only going to be okay with one concept?" But it usually worked, and I think the reason why is at least from a designer's perspective I feel like every time when you make multiple concepts for a client there's always that one that you're presenting that you hope they're going to pick. That one concept that you're just totally in love with compared to the other ones, and I just don't want to send a design to my clients that I don't feel like they're going to love just as much as I do.

And so, there's that, and then sometimes you present different concepts, and then clients are like, "Can't we just match the two, or marry the two into something new, or combine the two," or whatever, and I'm like, "Please don't," and then that happens.

Either way, I want to prevent both of those things from happening. I actually did present two options once to a client last week, and that was probably the first time that I did that in over two years, but that was only because the concept that I wanted to present was quite risky. It was a wild card, and so I presented a more safer option to go with it as well, but they eventually went for the wild card anyway.

Ian Paget: I think a lot of it is knowing that your process is effective, because one of the reasons why I don't like to just show one ... I have tried it. I am always experimenting with different approaches, but why I like to do more than one is I know if I only show one I will stop too early, because every time I've had the situation where say I've got two really, really good ideas, and I think that they're absolutely amazing, and nothing is going to be better than them, because I need to find another solution that I would like to present I tend to push and explore territories which I probably wouldn't otherwise.

I think it's worth saying I would never show anything that I generally wouldn't think would work, but I think because it forces me to keep going past the point of success, because I've gone that far. I very often find a more effective solution that I would never, ever of got to if I just stopped, and I know I could create my own process where I push myself to go through that exercise. I just think I would probably start to get a little bit lazy, and just stop too early, and I'd like to think that I would still show good work, but it just pushes me to keep going in that direction.

And there have been times when I've been really 100% sure about one, and in those cases what I've done is I've actually gone to the client and presented the process of how I got to that one, and why I feel it's so strong. I'm always playing and experimenting, but even when I show one, and I share the process, I'm sharing lots of different potential, variants of what I'm doing, and sharing my thought process and everything like that.

I don't think there's any set in stone process, but that's why I prefer in most cases to show more than one solution, and also I just personally don't believe that there is one solution to a problem.

Lisa Jacobs: Definitely.

Ian Paget: Especially with logo design, if you contact 50 designers you would get 50 completely different solutions.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. You're totally right, and that's totally legit actually, and what you said about becoming lazy and stopping at one point is something that I caught myself doing at the very start as well, because that's something that is my internal fight basically. I tried to resolve that before, but I totally get what you mean, because sometimes I'm like, "Yes, this is it, and this is what they're going to love," and they usually do, but I do feel like maybe exploring more wouldn't hurt once in a while, and sometimes I lack doing that, so I totally get where you're coming from as well.

Ian Paget: I think Emily Oberman who works at Pentagram who she used to work with, Tibor Kalman. With his approach even if say within the first 10 minutes they found what they believe is genuinely the most effective solution, just in case they will still run through the process. They have this process they have to run through that just to make sure they covered every corner, looked at every option, just to make sure that one that they came up with in the space of 10 minutes is the best solution.

And I think if you are going down the route of one solution at the end of it I think you need to have that real strength within you to make sure that you do go through that process, and don't get lazy in the way that I know that I would if I was going to take that direction.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, totally. I understand. I actually saw a video from ... I think it was a short video on Instagram from Melinda Livsey. I think it was on Instagram, I can't be sure, but one of her students I think was talking about getting a client that had worked with another designer before that presented them 16 options or something for a couple hundred dollars.

Ian Paget: Yikes.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. It was an insane amount, and for a couple hundred dollars, and they hated all of them, and that she actually just charged way more, and only offered one option, so the client was like, "Well, why the hell would we do that?" And she was like, "Okay. If you don't trust me then pay me half. You only have to pay me half and you can walk away," and so, that's what they did, and they went through that entire strategic process of really defining what they're looking for, and their problems, and really having a good picture of what they want.

And apparently, when she showed, at least that's what Melinda said, when she showed the final result the client just started to cry because it was perfect.

Ian Paget: Wow.

Lisa Jacobs: And so, that's what I'm trying to do now. At least that's what I wish I knew before is that the whole strategic part is just so, so important, and I'm so glad that at least in the Instagram community people are talking more about strategy now than they did before when people were just liking nice looking logos, because it's such an important part of designing something like this. It just makes or breaks your whole concept I think in 99% of cases.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I totally agree. I think strategy is absolutely essential. I think the Futur and Chris Do probably originally sparked it to drive the Core product. I think that's what really sparked it, and it almost became a buzzword, but I think that trend is winding down a little bit. It's not discussed like this crazy new thing now.

It's almost become anyone that's doing logo design, branding, and so on properly they're all running through some kind of strategy-based exercise, and that's really nice to see actually, because it means that work is getting better. There's less design, it's just creating pretty pictures, and more designers actually finding effective solutions to problems.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also going to make at least a difference to the outer world that has no idea what we're doing, see the difference between the simple Fiverr logos to say it very roughly, but between that type of work and the work that people do that are actually thinking more strategically, that they're actually logical designers out there than people think about designers, and artists, that they're maybe a little bit ... I don't know the English word for it, but free thinking, and not very logical thinking about their brand, or strategic thinking.

I think that's now more and more associated with design, which I think is really cool when at first it wasn't, and so people didn't value it as much as people are doing these days, and I think the feeling is increasing more and more.

Designing Multiple Logo Styles

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, definitely. I also wanted to say looking through your portfolio I can see that you do quite a few different styles, which is good, because I know there's some designers out there you can look at the work and see that it's theirs, but it's nice to see that you are creating different styles, but you also have that capability, so seeing the super clean minimal designs, but also there was one with a little rhino.

I've got a note down. Yeah, Toro Bravo, a project that you did. You did this sketched out rhino. How did you go about doing that particular logo? Is that drawn by hand and then low traced in Illustrator, or something like that?

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. I did it with an old Wacom tablet. It's funny that you started talking about that because a lot of people sometimes, like in Lives for example, they're like, "Oh, I love your style," and I'm like, "I don't know what my style is guys. What is my style?" I don't know. I actually think a couple of years back I read something, I think it was about Pablo Picasso or something that before he did a lot of abstract work he was learning to do very realistic paintings, and I really like that idea that you master very fine arts before going abstract and more, like I said, very minimal.

Ian Paget: Yeah, more minimal.

Lisa Jacobs: To master both so you actually have some reasoning as to why you're doing it. It's not like you don't put a lot of detail in it. You can, but you just choose not to for a good reason, and that is how I started my own creative journey anyways because when I was in my teenage years I was obsessed with doing photorealistic portrait drawings that actually look like photos, and that is how I started, but having that I think I have detail.

And trying to do different things it also opens up a lot more options when you're making something for a client, because like you said there's no one option that is right, and I think it's a risky thing, but it can also be a very cool thing is when you're a designer with a very specific style, then the clients that are going to approach you are probably maybe approaching you because they like that style, but that doesn't mean that it might be perfect for your brand, and that can be a very risky thing in my opinion. I try to do different styles, but yeah, that's usually why I do it.

Ian Paget: No, it's good, because I think as we've got to throughout this conversation you show the type of work that you want to attract, so showing that you can do a diverse range of different styles means that when people approach you, or when people come across a piece of work, they might sometimes come to you and say, "I actually want something like that."

And I think with logo designs specifically a lot of the time people come to you because they want something like the work that you've done before, that they want some element of that. Something that I try to do with my portfolio anything which I feel doesn't fit within the type of work that I actually want to do I've taken out. I've been lucky enough to work with companies like Warhammer on projects, and I've done some really cool stuff, but it's all very complex artwork with lots of details.

It would probably be the type of thing that would be really cool for a movie, but I found any client that saw that, or any potential client that saw that, it was app developers that had no money. It was people that were creating their own thing that had no money. And any time I got that type of project, to be honest, I didn't really want to do that style. I prefer the more minimal style. I find with logo design the more simple something is I find it's actually harder to do, and I like those more complex challenges.

And I've found since I show only that kind of minimal style on my website that is exactly the type of client I get, so you're probably fine. Give it another five, 10 years you'll probably get to a point where you'll be like, "Actually, I don't like doing that style," or "I don't have a preference to that style. I'm going to push that one to one side," and you might eventually find that you become more of a specialist in another, so I think doing lots of different styles and finding your direction I think it's a really good thing to do.

Niching Down as a Brand Identity Designer

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, thank you. To be honest, I was doubting in terms of what I post for a long time, because everybody in the industry is always talking about niche-ing down, which is totally legit. I get it. It totally makes sense, but I feel like people that are getting into design they immediately feel like they need to niche, because that's what the whole industry is talking about right now, but I'm only 25. There's enough time for me, or enough room for me, to decide which route I want to take, if I even want to niche down, so that's what I'm trying to do, and maybe it's not smart to do it out in the open on Instagram for thousands of followers, but that's what I'll do anyway.

Ian Paget: No. I don't see any harm in it. I know there's a lot of conversations about niching down, but I ... I know I work on logo design, which is technically a niche, but that kind of happened by accident, but I could take that further, and specialise further, so to only do logos and identities for a certain industry, but I think as long as you have work coming in it's fine. I think the advantage to niche-ing down is that you can really hone your marketing messages. You know exactly where to find people.

There's loads of benefits to doing that, but when you're in your 20s do everything. I've done movie posters, game artwork, animation sheets. I've done exhibition stands, brochures, catalogs. I've done everything, and a lot of people don't know that because they just know me as The Logo Geek, but I think it's good to dabble in everything, and then as you get older, and you want to spend your time with kids, or whatever, you want to use your time more intelligently, and niche-ing down and specialise in a certain skill. It makes sense, but that doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual progression, and I don't think anyone needs to rush you. I think it's something that you find on your own.

So, if you're just starting out don't worry, just do everything, but just be aware that the reason why everyone is talking about niche-ing down is because you can hyper target your messages, your content, your services, and so on to a single person rather than trying to sell the same thing to everybody.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. It's just clear messaging is what also attracts more clients as well. I get it. It's just like I don't know when I'm going to have to make a decision, but we'll see.

Ian Paget: Just do it in your own time. Do it in your own time.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly.

Ian Paget: There's no rush for this stuff.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

One Piece of Advice

Ian Paget: We've done just over an hour, so I'm going to ask you one last question then I'm going to wrap this us. Imagine yourself getting inside a time machine, and you're going to go back to any time in your life. It could be last week. It could be when you were a kid. It could've been a couple of years ago. If you could go back, but you could only give yourself one piece of advice before returning, what piece of advice would you give to yourself and when?

Lisa Jacobs: Maybe before I was going to college, and I would probably give my advice to just try out as many things as you can, and don't hold on too much on stability, I think is the trap, so don't do that.

Ian Paget: I think that's really good advice, especially when you're young, if you still live with parents, and you've got loads of safety net, experiment, play, do whatever, because when you get older and you start to have a mortgage and kids like that playing with things and trying different things it's a little bit riskier, but when you're young just play. Just do whatever you need to do. Don't worry about trying to build a business, or any of that sort of stuff. Just play and experiment, and that sounds like a good piece of advice for your younger self.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah, exactly. When I was in college I had the option, for example, to go on an exchange to the US at a university, and I didn't do it because I just had a new apartment that I was super proud of, and now I'm like, "Lisa, why didn't you do it?" I stayed in the apartment.

Ian Paget: You only live once, so I think even when you're younger you can still do all that sort of stuff.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Anyway. I think we'll wrap this up. Lisa, it's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on, and for sharing your story, and lots of advice, and so on. I'm hoping that it will inspire lots of people, and it's been really great, so thanks so much.

Lisa Jacobs: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.